Not really. They are not exactly relaxing when it comes to western imperialism and opposing it.
There just is not exactly much to do against it if they don’t want to jeopardise their own people, their goal of a multipolar world and the idea of socialism in the world.
We are talking about nuclear powers and china is not that well liked yet in the west. They also don’t want to make it seem like they are behind the Palestinian struggle and therefore give an excuse for the genocide because the evil and powerful CCP is behind it and not normal people that wanted to live in peace and are violently resisting due to being attacked.
To paint china as simply relaxing on this issue is a huge insult imo and we should trust our comrades conducting one of the most successful socialist experiments a little bit more. Especially when we consider that the USSR might have spread itself a bit thin by helping around the globe before securing themselves
Or they could not do that because there is nothing specifically wrong from profiting off of your enemies’ actions as long as you don’t rely on it for your entire economy. We don’t really deal with moralist arguments here
Yes, and the trade with the entity was that China got US miltech in the 90s (when it was still the top provider in the world) when no one else would trade it with them bc of sanctions and in exchange the colony gets AC units and some agriculture. Basically consumer goods.
I’m not going to do a good trade bad trade comparison because that’s meaningless but this was the historical reason for the normalization of relations with the zionist entity and the exporting country does get the most benefit out of it. There is a strict ban on exporting weapons or anything that could be made into weapons.
I can’t be in their mind but China is probably worried that if they completely change course it will only alienate them from the ties they’ve built in the region. Most countries in the region have normalized relations with the occupation, what is China supposed to do when they inherited a situation they had no hand in forming? Instead of yelling at them on english websites the CPC doesn’t read we should be demanding that our governments send Cuba oil.
Seems like sound logic. Trade with the genocidal ally of the increasingly fascistic global military super power while they systematically eliminate all other smaller “AES” states and major trade partners you have (or economically force them into submission) while you sit back and shore up your metaphorical walls.
You idealist China shills are nothing if not consistent.
You respond to differing opinions with a haughty demeanor. Then, when a counter argument is made, you resort to childish name calling when your rehearsed responses are no longer sufficiently up to the task.
I will concede the trade point in a general sense. But the point I was trying to make is that, to our collective dismay I’m sure, the US is tightening a noose around China.
Russia is floating the idea of trading with dollars again in Ukraine negotiations. India recently made a trade deal with the US for oil. Depending on how these things play out, BRICS will be considerably weakened.
The US is moving a large amount of armaments to the Philippines. They are amassing a fleet to strike Iran. South Korea is still… South Korea.
I disagree with what I assume is you and your comrades support of China’s lack of direct support for socialist movements abroad. It looks to me as though they will soon be in a very weak position on the global playing field. In my opinion, that direct support could have made a difference. Reeling in trade with their ideological enemies could as well. Should this play out in favor of the US, they will likely have to make more concessions to the bourgeoisie than they already have.
Unless the US economy finally gives way to the rot that has been spreading across it’s foundations. Which China may be banking on. The “gamble” I mentioned previously.
Boycotting Israel would be a unilateral movement of active hostility that, unfortunately, would be viewed with hostility by the US and its vassals. China gets away with bilateral trade wars because they are acting in response to actions taken against it directly, not for a third party.
The US views China’s mere existence as a hostility. What would the US do in response, launch missiles? Economic sanctions against China would hurt the US more than they hurt China, no?
Obviously the West holds 1000x more culpability for Israel. I’m not saying “China bad”; I’m just trying to do “ruthless criticism”.
I am not gonna pretend like I specifically know a lot about their trade with Israel and why they continue some of their trade, but then also block investments in Israel.
I just know that they have been building up one of the most successful socialist experiments ever and that they have been phenomenal at navigating their politics and economy as to lift their people up into greater heights while not relying on the destruction of other people to achieve that.
I am sure that Israel is not an integral part of their economy and I am also sure that banning trade will not affect Israel at all because America and the EU are gonna pick up the slack
Anyway, trade is not support so maybe they just don’t see it as a problem at all and are concentrating on navigating the downfall of the empire and dodging the lash outs while trying not to agitate them into nuclear war.
What anti-imperialist causes is China supporting in any significant manner, besides just improving its own productive forces? Cuba is about to be destroyed through sanctions, Venezuela just had a coup orchestrated by the hegemon, one that China probably did nothing to intervene in. What exactly is China doing besides profiting from all sides?
I swear you people just really want to start WW3 out of nowhere and it’s driving me crazy
Imagine if we held all parties to the same standard we hold China wrt this genocide
Go and grab a gun and fight for the Palestinian resistance otherwise stfu I swear to god. Trade isn’t support! Trading with the entity is no worse than trading with the US itself.
Cuba is building up its solar energy infrastructure and is able to do so purely because of the existence of China. The global south is able to develop past neocolonial condemned poor development solely because of the USSR and now China. They are fulfilling an important role even if you personally would rather see a few million Chinese people die for the cause.
LOL when you resort to dogshit arguments like this. Comparing 1 guy in living in the West vs the 2nd largest super power in the world. Get a grip. China does nothing cause all they care about is themselves and they don’t care how much they have to trade with an entity that kills babies for fun to get there.
sorry, you’re right, the biggest opposition to the Western empire and capital should come from the destitute poor in the imperial core who are actively being hunted down by cops and ICE. Incredible vision for the future, sorry Palestine
Yeah the PRC just popped into existence and was never poor and destitute and being hunted by fascists you’re right we shouldn’t do anything and if the Chinese don’t sacrifice themselves by the millions they are the reason why everyone around the world suffers.
Yes, unironically - do you expect Palestinians to swim across the ocean to come clean up the mess that your people is causing? Its the US thats bombing them!
Well, the reality is that US capital is bombing Palestine, and that the people responsible for stopping them, the oppressed in the imperial ore are or have been rendered fucking useless.
Just like literally every country that has experienced revolution, yes. You think the commies in 1917 russia where not hunted down before they won? Feudal China fucking loved the commies, everyone knows that of course. The commies famously had a great and easy revolution in germany as well and the police just let them be.
Zero thought behind that reply and clearly just written in order to try to affirm your anti-china bias.
What anti-imperialist causes is China supporting in any significant manner, besides just improving its own productive forces? Cuba is about to be destroyed through sanctions, Venezuela just had a coup orchestrated by the hegemon, one that China probably did nothing to intervene in. What exactly is China doing besides profiting from all sides?
North Korea? Did the entire Korean war just go over your head?
The implicit threat from America has always been that if China starts exerting influence over Palestine, they will escalate North Korea - China is still technically at war with the US over this, peace was never agreed.
Imagine if we held all parties to the same standard we hold China wrt this genocide
But we do. Nobody criticizes any country for trading with the US despite the US being more heinous than the Zionist entity. It’s not comparable if you consider its entire history or the fact that the Zionist entity is a military, economic, intelligence, and somewhat political extension of the US anyways.
Nobody who hasn’t fallen for NATO talking points criticizes the Soviet Union trading with fascist Germany while the non-aggression pact was in effect and nobody criticizes the Soviet Union for trading with fascist Japan while the other non-aggression pact was in effect.
Nobody who hasn’t fallen for NATO talking points criticizes the Soviet Union trading with fascist Germany while the non-aggression pact was in effect and nobody criticizes the Soviet Union for trading with fascist Japan while the other non-aggression pact was in effect.
That’s a very good point, but the difference I see is that Israel and China are nowhere near economic peers. A boycott would devastate Israel and China would barely feel a thing from the loss in trade.
the Zionist entity is a military, economic, intelligence, and somewhat political extension of the US anyways.
There’s no such thing as an independent boycott of the Zionist entity especially since the Zionist entity is completely reliant on the US anyways. If anything, the real cynical kabuki theatre pro-wrestling move would be to partially boycott the Zionist entity while simultaneously increase trade with the US with the understanding that the US would use the increase in traded commodities to further subsidize the Zionist entity and fill in the holes left by the “boycott.”
The only real way to economically hurt the Zionist entity is to hurt the Zionist entity’s master. Notice how a lot of countries that have no economic ties to the Zionist entity like the DPRK also don’t have economic ties with the US either. Because the US is very willing to subsidize the Zionist entity and because the US has a much bigger economy than the Zionist entity’s, a complete boycott the Zionist entity is essentially just a partial boycott of the US and the Zionist entity. For various reasons, China is not ready to wage economic warfare in so open a fashion against the US.
A boycott could work if the US vassal is unimportant enough that the US would rather leave them to their fate than save them. If China boycotts an expendable US vassal and the US refuses to save them, it could open up opportunities for the US compradors in charge to be overthrown, ideally by anti-imperialist forces. However, this is 100% untrue for the Zionist entity, which is probably the US’s most valuable vassal to the point where it’s not even a vassal anymore since the Israeli political class is completely self-aware of the settler-colony’s value in destroying WANA unity among many other things.
They do but BE is doing that annoying idealist shit Lenin, Parenti, et al have roasted where nothing China does is ever good enough for Leftists because they’re not a super wholesome big chungus perfect real communist society in our time that has no flaws and is a utopia for everyone.
He could be calling out the countries actually backing the genocide
but he’s choosing to attack China instead. Like, really? Priorities.
nothing China does is ever good enough for Leftists because they’re not a super wholesome big chungus perfect real communist society in our time that has no flaws and is a utopia for everyone.
China has been forced into a strategic and largely non-interventionist posture on shit like this because they know openly bombing Pissr*al would be the easiest way to foment a coalition of xenophobic backlash, and at precisely a time when the West is crumbling on itself and China makes enormous strategic gains, day by day, by doing nothing.
Having said that, I’m still critical of China’s position on Gaza. It’s a bleak fucking time for most of the world right now.
Yeah I feel like, BE’s takes on China are pretty shit on the regular but honestly I would be lying if I said I didn’t feel like this sometimes. Most leftists on this site have agreed at one point or another that China’s international policies have a history of being… Not the best, but the second you criticize the lack of any real support for Palestine, all of a sudden you get a 10 pages essay about why their strategy of inaction is 10D chess and how they have to keep doing business with Israel and having their politicians literally praise trade deals with them in order to somehow eventually prevent the single last Palestinian child from being murdered.
Like we get it, they can’t really do shit because the west, and none of us is ready to die in nuclear hellfire. It’s the simple truth, but damn if they don’t make it come off like they really just don’t give a single shit about stopping it.
As bleak as it is, in my personal opinion, Palestine is doomed. The world will fail to do anything till it’s too late for them. The only powers that CAN stop it, have all but blatantly admitted they won’t. I know this will piss a lot of people off, and we should all still support them to the last, but I just don’t see this genocide being stopped in time.
The burden for China to have to do something against the wests genocide when they have nothing to do with Palestine, even historically is weird. Despite that the diplomatic perspective of China has always been one of contesting the Golan heights, supporting North Korea and historic support of the PLO when it was a marxist entity.
To say they are not anti-colonial is wrong, they are also pro-trade and diplomancy - im not going to get mad at them for mirroring what the US does which is just bomb them.
My issue wasn’t that China isn’t doing anything. I get it. I wouldn’t get my countrymen in a war, and probably nuked unless there was no other possible option. Certainly not when Isn’treal would just nuke Gaza on its way out anyway. It would be starting WW3 and not actually save anyone in the process. But damn some of the optics and statements they make really make you feel disheartened, and pissed off. When I see big statements by the ambassador praising their trade relations and how they are such good partners and yada yada, it can get rather infuriating. “Oh, so glad you got those priorities right there buddy. So glad you are such happy trading partners with the genocidal child rapists. Good for you.”
Imagine your neighbor is regularly beating their wife and raping their kid in front of the whole neighborhood and then you make a comment at how great their last BBQ was. That’s what it feels like and IDC what people say or how they justify it. It’s fucking sucks and I will say it fucking sucks.
but the second you criticize the lack of any real support for Palestine, all of a sudden you get a 10 pages essay about why their strategy of inaction is 10D chess and how they have to keep doing business with Israel and having their politicians literally praise trade deals with them in order to somehow eventually prevent the single last Palestinian child from being murdered.
This is just bad faith nonsense. People have really got to stop believing negative stuff they read about an AES project just because it aligns with what they already suppose is happening.
I can’t seem to find it in my bookmarks at the moment so maybe I didn’t bookmark it, but there was a thing just recently about a company that was having problems because of China having blocked new investments in israel and marked it as high risk since 2023. I could not figure out from that one story whether the blocking new investments part was recent or if that was also since 2023, but this is part of the problem. Most sources English-speaking people will come across about China organically are not sources coming directly from China about what China is doing.
I use this as an example because it demonstrates how it already isn’t as simple as “they are doing business with israel as normal”.
Another recent example, about Venezuela, was some people falling for an imperialist headline that claimed Venezuela was sending oil to israel and they took this as evidence of Delcy Rodriguez being a sellout. But official Venezuelan sourcing corrected this claim.
As for the stuff about “10D chess”, I can only assume you’re referring to analyses that delve into the situation China found itself in after the USSR got destroyed and why it has taken the path it has. It’s not 10D chess, it’s dialectical and historical materialism, which can probably sound convoluted sometimes, but that’s because 1) taking on a hegemonic global capitalist empire is complicated and 2) we’re largely trying to explain it from the outside in without having grown up in the Chinese context and being privy to how it all went down.
You’re welcome to challenge the analyses and do your own, but dismissing it as 10 page essays of excuses is not helping anyone. It’s pretty low effort to fling shit at people who are trying to understand the world and shout some moralist proclamations. It takes more effort to contribute to that understanding, but more importantly, it can require real sacrifice to take moral stands that have consequences for doing so that can result in a painful end.
And if the people of Palestine can be steadfast throughout the decades of torture and genocide they’ve faced, what is your excuse for proclaiming them doomed?
So I had a big ass well thought out and well written post to detail on all my points but then lemmygrad seemed to crash on all my browsers and it’s gone, so I’ma just do a summary on my lemmy account cause I’m too annoyed to retype it all.
Basically, the Chinese blocking trade was a fabrication made by a pissy Isn’real company that made excuses for a Chinese firm not wanting to buy up a bunch of their stock. At least that’s how it looks to me. The Chinese embassy refuted their claims. See link. Now maybe there’s a secret ban, but China typically stands by their statements.
As for the rest… Basically, I think they are doomed because the west is ramping up the genocide, and the aid is running out. Countries are backing off. I’m not belittling their efforts nor saying anyone should give up. Just acknowledging the bleak nature of the world. I also think we have a major issue with “someone will save us/them.” And that’s that mentality issues all to common and is only hurting us
We gotta just accept that no one gonna save us but us. China isn’t gonna get themselves nuked for me, you, or anyone else, if they can avoid it. I’d say the same for most other countries.
I never said I was a “China bad because not helping” person, just that I understand how people get there. Like is said, China isn’t gonna get themselves nuked for you, me, or anyone else, that’s isn’t China. It would be stupid to. I wouldn’t if I was them. But sometimes, I have to hate on the optics and commentary they give about it. Like when Chinese ambassadors go on about how great trade relations are going with Israel and how great of a trading partner they are. Like " oh cool, glad you having a good ol time with the genocidal maniac state."
I had so much more to say/better wording but I don’t have an hour to remember and retype it all, so this is what I got.
We know how bleak things are. We know what has been happening and what will likely happen. You don’t always have to spell it out when it doesn’t help anyone.
Why wouldn’t Israel destroy itself and take Palestine with them if China decided to militarily overthrow this entity? And who would the world blame? China. It’s always China’s fault.
There is an epidemic of “someone will do something and save us, we just have to hold out.” Across so much of the people I see. On here. On Reddit. IRL. And it need to be broken. Shit is bleak and I’m tired of seeing people hide from it. The world is bleak and it’s abandoned Palestine and nothing is more awful and disgusting than that. Nothing is more enraging that people not accepting what is happening. Thinking it’ll all be ok. It’s fucking not. No one is coming to save them, no one is coming to same us. We have to save ourselves, and maybe, if we hit enough people in the face with that, we won’t be alone in doing so. People need a wake up call. People need to top hiding from it.
And Israel will absolutely nuke Gaza on its way out. It’s one of many reasons no one will do anything. China isn’t going to get itself nuked over it. They aren’t stupid. I am not in the “China bad because do nothing” crowd. I get it. And I accept the bleakness. The world leaders have pretty much quietly accepted they will let Palestine die to prevent global nuclear war. My gripe isn’t that China isn’t doing anything. They do what they can. I am sure of that. It’s that damn I could go without seeing shit like their ambassadors going on about how great their trade relations are with Isn’treal and how great partners they are and all that shit. And I can see why people form the opinion that they are just sipping mimosas while all this goes on.
I don’t agree with everything written here, but I think this is a decent critique of what’s happening under Liberalism Oscar Wilde 1891
The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim.
That pretty much sums up liberalism, what it does, how it carries out it’s evils while pretending to be good and how imo. we desperately need healthy Individualism. But I am struggling to figure out how to pitch this. Right now I’m trying the approach of: “I see you’re trying to rescue people here, that’s awesome that you care, but we really need to do something about what’s causing it.”
But people are so propagandized they don’t listen to me. I’m talking about building power locally and then we can use it to assist other causes, but they don’t want to build power. They keep on relying on private industry and show no interest to work with me to build an alternative. Shit’s so bleak, but I’ll try to figure out something.
I tried to convince a person I know is a liberal today that like, changing the “current regime” in the Whitehouse will not stop what is happening and that this shits not gonna just get better and there no “weathering this crazy phase.”
And it basically made me realize that… We’re doomed. These fucking people. They will just pretend like everything is fine until they are being shoved into an incinerator. They really just cannot fathom that things won’t just “be ok.” It honestly was part of what spawned my entire rant here… I just… How? How can people be so god damn delusional? I am actually going insane. I can feel my mental faculties snapping a little bit more every time I interact with them.
China’s foreign policy has always been shit. Even the most hard-core MLs on this site know that. What I am not gonna do is tell China how to build their socialism when my own country keeps glazing pissrael and we haven’t built anywhere near a possible revolution.
I mean, they could do a Trump strategy and declare an economic blockade on Israel and put tariffs on anyone who does business with Israel. But they’re too busy complying to the WTO for some reason…
To enforce that economic blockade, you have to declare war to the entire West and decouple completely from the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all).
As long as the West is willing to save their Zionist dog by bleeding their economies dry, there is no viable way to do an economic blockade without a military siege.
The problem with people here is that they see the entity as something separate rather than something within the Western system. To eradicate Israel, you have to destroy the West.
Ending trade with Israel means nothing if the U.S. and the EU keep financing, arming, and shielding Israel on every international stage. If we delve into this idea further, we will actually find that it will hurt the Global South as a whole instead of actually hurting Israel because it will push the West for more vicious actions toward China(examples: weaponizing the USD, weaponizing maritime shipping and oil routes, worse coercion than before to the point of blackmail to isolate China from the Global South). As long as the viable alternatives to the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all) are not ready, any actions like this from China will only trigger more confrontation that will affect everyone including the Palestinians.
That’s why I will highlight once again that seeing Israel as something separate from the West instead of something from within is a big problem that will only lead you to oversimplification.
If we really want the end to the genocide instead of performative actions that will lead us nowhere, Israel’s lifeline must be destroyed and that lifeline is U.S’s and EU’s. military aid, markets, weapons, UN protection. The US and the EU must collapse as a whole.
This would involve an immediate reaction by the west and probably end up being almost as bad as taking physical action in the long run. It would only really hurt China and China isn’t going to take actions that hurts itself. It’s not in their playbook.
Yes, but that’s exactly what’s frustrating in their foreign policy. They won’t do anything that upsets the West. Even Russia was willing to eat up all the sanctions, but China won’t do anything. Eventually that will come back to bite them. After all, the destabilization of the Middle East is part of the US plan to destroy China. But the CPC doesn’t seem worried, so what do I know?
I mean, yeah, they do kinda do that.
Not really. They are not exactly relaxing when it comes to western imperialism and opposing it.
There just is not exactly much to do against it if they don’t want to jeopardise their own people, their goal of a multipolar world and the idea of socialism in the world.
We are talking about nuclear powers and china is not that well liked yet in the west. They also don’t want to make it seem like they are behind the Palestinian struggle and therefore give an excuse for the genocide because the evil and powerful CCP is behind it and not normal people that wanted to live in peace and are violently resisting due to being attacked.
To paint china as simply relaxing on this issue is a huge insult imo and we should trust our comrades conducting one of the most successful socialist experiments a little bit more. Especially when we consider that the USSR might have spread itself a bit thin by helping around the globe before securing themselves
They could stop profiting off of a genocidal fascist state for one.
Or they could not do that because there is nothing specifically wrong from profiting off of your enemies’ actions as long as you don’t rely on it for your entire economy. We don’t really deal with moralist arguments here
Good quote!
Yes, and the trade with the entity was that China got US miltech in the 90s (when it was still the top provider in the world) when no one else would trade it with them bc of sanctions and in exchange the colony gets AC units and some agriculture. Basically consumer goods.
I’m not going to do a good trade bad trade comparison because that’s meaningless but this was the historical reason for the normalization of relations with the zionist entity and the exporting country does get the most benefit out of it. There is a strict ban on exporting weapons or anything that could be made into weapons.
I can’t be in their mind but China is probably worried that if they completely change course it will only alienate them from the ties they’ve built in the region. Most countries in the region have normalized relations with the occupation, what is China supposed to do when they inherited a situation they had no hand in forming? Instead of yelling at them on english websites the CPC doesn’t read we should be demanding that our governments send Cuba oil.
Seems like sound logic. Trade with the genocidal ally of the increasingly fascistic global military super power while they systematically eliminate all other smaller “AES” states and major trade partners you have (or economically force them into submission) while you sit back and shore up your metaphorical walls.
Sounds like a one hell of a gamble to me.
Yada yada. The other comments in this thread already addressed everything and explained in easy terms why China is doing what they are doing.
Thank you for the well thought out eloquent response. It contributed much to the discussion.
There is just no more discussion to be had. All the bullshit you come up with has already been answered in this very thread.
Stop being a racist failure and just read the 100 comments here and be educated
You idealist China shills are nothing if not consistent.
You respond to differing opinions with a haughty demeanor. Then, when a counter argument is made, you resort to childish name calling when your rehearsed responses are no longer sufficiently up to the task.
What Is To Be Done?
Easier to link than redo
I will concede the trade point in a general sense. But the point I was trying to make is that, to our collective dismay I’m sure, the US is tightening a noose around China.
Russia is floating the idea of trading with dollars again in Ukraine negotiations. India recently made a trade deal with the US for oil. Depending on how these things play out, BRICS will be considerably weakened.
The US is moving a large amount of armaments to the Philippines. They are amassing a fleet to strike Iran. South Korea is still… South Korea.
I disagree with what I assume is you and your comrades support of China’s lack of direct support for socialist movements abroad. It looks to me as though they will soon be in a very weak position on the global playing field. In my opinion, that direct support could have made a difference. Reeling in trade with their ideological enemies could as well. Should this play out in favor of the US, they will likely have to make more concessions to the bourgeoisie than they already have.
Unless the US economy finally gives way to the rot that has been spreading across it’s foundations. Which China may be banking on. The “gamble” I mentioned previously.
If China can make moves in the trade war like banning the sale of rare Earth metals then they can boycott Israel IMO
Boycotting Israel would be a unilateral movement of active hostility that, unfortunately, would be viewed with hostility by the US and its vassals. China gets away with bilateral trade wars because they are acting in response to actions taken against it directly, not for a third party.
The US views China’s mere existence as a hostility. What would the US do in response, launch missiles? Economic sanctions against China would hurt the US more than they hurt China, no?
Obviously the West holds 1000x more culpability for Israel. I’m not saying “China bad”; I’m just trying to do “ruthless criticism”.
China is not officially banning the sale of refined rare earths. It mereley does not process export orders by the US.
I am not gonna pretend like I specifically know a lot about their trade with Israel and why they continue some of their trade, but then also block investments in Israel.
I just know that they have been building up one of the most successful socialist experiments ever and that they have been phenomenal at navigating their politics and economy as to lift their people up into greater heights while not relying on the destruction of other people to achieve that.
I am sure that Israel is not an integral part of their economy and I am also sure that banning trade will not affect Israel at all because America and the EU are gonna pick up the slack
Anyway, trade is not support so maybe they just don’t see it as a problem at all and are concentrating on navigating the downfall of the empire and dodging the lash outs while trying not to agitate them into nuclear war.
‘They’re actually sweating profusely and waiting to hit the big communism button’ is really not convincing
Literally no one said that and you made that up completely. They are supporting anti-imperialist causes on the globe just like Russia and the DPRK.
I swear you people just really want to start WW3 out of nowhere and it’s driving me crazy
What anti-imperialist causes is China supporting in any significant manner, besides just improving its own productive forces? Cuba is about to be destroyed through sanctions, Venezuela just had a coup orchestrated by the hegemon, one that China probably did nothing to intervene in. What exactly is China doing besides profiting from all sides?
Imagine if we held all parties to the same standard we hold China wrt this genocide
Go and grab a gun and fight for the Palestinian resistance otherwise stfu I swear to god. Trade isn’t support! Trading with the entity is no worse than trading with the US itself.
Cuba is building up its solar energy infrastructure and is able to do so purely because of the existence of China. The global south is able to develop past neocolonial condemned poor development solely because of the USSR and now China. They are fulfilling an important role even if you personally would rather see a few million Chinese people die for the cause.
LOL when you resort to dogshit arguments like this. Comparing 1 guy in living in the West vs the 2nd largest super power in the world. Get a grip. China does nothing cause all they care about is themselves and they don’t care how much they have to trade with an entity that kills babies for fun to get there.
sorry, you’re right, the biggest opposition to the Western empire and capital should come from the destitute poor in the imperial core who are actively being hunted down by cops and ICE. Incredible vision for the future, sorry Palestine
Yeah the PRC just popped into existence and was never poor and destitute and being hunted by fascists you’re right we shouldn’t do anything and if the Chinese don’t sacrifice themselves by the millions they are the reason why everyone around the world suffers.
Entitled, pathetic behaviour.
Literally noone fucking argued that Chinese people must die to stop this
Yes, unironically - do you expect Palestinians to swim across the ocean to come clean up the mess that your people is causing? Its the US thats bombing them!
Well, the reality is that US capital is bombing Palestine, and that the people responsible for stopping them, the oppressed in the imperial ore are or have been rendered fucking useless.
I guess Palestine was fucked from the beginning.
Just like literally every country that has experienced revolution, yes. You think the commies in 1917 russia where not hunted down before they won? Feudal China fucking loved the commies, everyone knows that of course. The commies famously had a great and easy revolution in germany as well and the police just let them be.
Zero thought behind that reply and clearly just written in order to try to affirm your anti-china bias.
time to read Settlers.
deleted by creator
North Korea? Did the entire Korean war just go over your head?
The implicit threat from America has always been that if China starts exerting influence over Palestine, they will escalate North Korea - China is still technically at war with the US over this, peace was never agreed.
But we do. Nobody criticizes any country for trading with the US despite the US being more heinous than the Zionist entity. It’s not comparable if you consider its entire history or the fact that the Zionist entity is a military, economic, intelligence, and somewhat political extension of the US anyways.
Nobody who hasn’t fallen for NATO talking points criticizes the Soviet Union trading with fascist Germany while the non-aggression pact was in effect and nobody criticizes the Soviet Union for trading with fascist Japan while the other non-aggression pact was in effect.
That’s a very good point, but the difference I see is that Israel and China are nowhere near economic peers. A boycott would devastate Israel and China would barely feel a thing from the loss in trade.
There’s no such thing as an independent boycott of the Zionist entity especially since the Zionist entity is completely reliant on the US anyways. If anything, the real cynical kabuki theatre pro-wrestling move would be to partially boycott the Zionist entity while simultaneously increase trade with the US with the understanding that the US would use the increase in traded commodities to further subsidize the Zionist entity and fill in the holes left by the “boycott.”
The only real way to economically hurt the Zionist entity is to hurt the Zionist entity’s master. Notice how a lot of countries that have no economic ties to the Zionist entity like the DPRK also don’t have economic ties with the US either. Because the US is very willing to subsidize the Zionist entity and because the US has a much bigger economy than the Zionist entity’s, a complete boycott the Zionist entity is essentially just a partial boycott of the US and the Zionist entity. For various reasons, China is not ready to wage economic warfare in so open a fashion against the US.
A boycott could work if the US vassal is unimportant enough that the US would rather leave them to their fate than save them. If China boycotts an expendable US vassal and the US refuses to save them, it could open up opportunities for the US compradors in charge to be overthrown, ideally by anti-imperialist forces. However, this is 100% untrue for the Zionist entity, which is probably the US’s most valuable vassal to the point where it’s not even a vassal anymore since the Israeli political class is completely self-aware of the settler-colony’s value in destroying WANA unity among many other things.
I honestly don’t know what you mean by this.
They do but BE is doing that annoying idealist shit Lenin, Parenti, et al have roasted where nothing China does is ever good enough for Leftists because they’re not a super wholesome big chungus perfect real communist society in our time that has no flaws and is a utopia for everyone.
He could be calling out the countries actually backing the genocide but he’s choosing to attack China instead. Like, really? Priorities.
China has been forced into a strategic and largely non-interventionist posture on shit like this because they know openly bombing Pissr*al would be the easiest way to foment a coalition of xenophobic backlash, and at precisely a time when the West is crumbling on itself and China makes enormous strategic gains, day by day, by doing nothing.
Having said that, I’m still critical of China’s position on Gaza. It’s a bleak fucking time for most of the world right now.
Yeah I feel like, BE’s takes on China are pretty shit on the regular but honestly I would be lying if I said I didn’t feel like this sometimes. Most leftists on this site have agreed at one point or another that China’s international policies have a history of being… Not the best, but the second you criticize the lack of any real support for Palestine, all of a sudden you get a 10 pages essay about why their strategy of inaction is 10D chess and how they have to keep doing business with Israel and having their politicians literally praise trade deals with them in order to somehow eventually prevent the single last Palestinian child from being murdered.
Like we get it, they can’t really do shit because the west, and none of us is ready to die in nuclear hellfire. It’s the simple truth, but damn if they don’t make it come off like they really just don’t give a single shit about stopping it.
As bleak as it is, in my personal opinion, Palestine is doomed. The world will fail to do anything till it’s too late for them. The only powers that CAN stop it, have all but blatantly admitted they won’t. I know this will piss a lot of people off, and we should all still support them to the last, but I just don’t see this genocide being stopped in time.
The burden for China to have to do something against the wests genocide when they have nothing to do with Palestine, even historically is weird. Despite that the diplomatic perspective of China has always been one of contesting the Golan heights, supporting North Korea and historic support of the PLO when it was a marxist entity.
To say they are not anti-colonial is wrong, they are also pro-trade and diplomancy - im not going to get mad at them for mirroring what the US does which is just bomb them.
My issue wasn’t that China isn’t doing anything. I get it. I wouldn’t get my countrymen in a war, and probably nuked unless there was no other possible option. Certainly not when Isn’treal would just nuke Gaza on its way out anyway. It would be starting WW3 and not actually save anyone in the process. But damn some of the optics and statements they make really make you feel disheartened, and pissed off. When I see big statements by the ambassador praising their trade relations and how they are such good partners and yada yada, it can get rather infuriating. “Oh, so glad you got those priorities right there buddy. So glad you are such happy trading partners with the genocidal child rapists. Good for you.”
Imagine your neighbor is regularly beating their wife and raping their kid in front of the whole neighborhood and then you make a comment at how great their last BBQ was. That’s what it feels like and IDC what people say or how they justify it. It’s fucking sucks and I will say it fucking sucks.
This is just bad faith nonsense. People have really got to stop believing negative stuff they read about an AES project just because it aligns with what they already suppose is happening.
I can’t seem to find it in my bookmarks at the moment so maybe I didn’t bookmark it, but there was a thing just recently about a company that was having problems because of China having blocked new investments in israel and marked it as high risk since 2023. I could not figure out from that one story whether the blocking new investments part was recent or if that was also since 2023, but this is part of the problem. Most sources English-speaking people will come across about China organically are not sources coming directly from China about what China is doing.
I use this as an example because it demonstrates how it already isn’t as simple as “they are doing business with israel as normal”.
Another recent example, about Venezuela, was some people falling for an imperialist headline that claimed Venezuela was sending oil to israel and they took this as evidence of Delcy Rodriguez being a sellout. But official Venezuelan sourcing corrected this claim.
As for the stuff about “10D chess”, I can only assume you’re referring to analyses that delve into the situation China found itself in after the USSR got destroyed and why it has taken the path it has. It’s not 10D chess, it’s dialectical and historical materialism, which can probably sound convoluted sometimes, but that’s because 1) taking on a hegemonic global capitalist empire is complicated and 2) we’re largely trying to explain it from the outside in without having grown up in the Chinese context and being privy to how it all went down.
You’re welcome to challenge the analyses and do your own, but dismissing it as 10 page essays of excuses is not helping anyone. It’s pretty low effort to fling shit at people who are trying to understand the world and shout some moralist proclamations. It takes more effort to contribute to that understanding, but more importantly, it can require real sacrifice to take moral stands that have consequences for doing so that can result in a painful end.
And if the people of Palestine can be steadfast throughout the decades of torture and genocide they’ve faced, what is your excuse for proclaiming them doomed?
So I had a big ass well thought out and well written post to detail on all my points but then lemmygrad seemed to crash on all my browsers and it’s gone, so I’ma just do a summary on my lemmy account cause I’m too annoyed to retype it all.
Basically, the Chinese blocking trade was a fabrication made by a pissy Isn’real company that made excuses for a Chinese firm not wanting to buy up a bunch of their stock. At least that’s how it looks to me. The Chinese embassy refuted their claims. See link. Now maybe there’s a secret ban, but China typically stands by their statements.
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202602/1355318.shtml
As for the rest… Basically, I think they are doomed because the west is ramping up the genocide, and the aid is running out. Countries are backing off. I’m not belittling their efforts nor saying anyone should give up. Just acknowledging the bleak nature of the world. I also think we have a major issue with “someone will save us/them.” And that’s that mentality issues all to common and is only hurting us We gotta just accept that no one gonna save us but us. China isn’t gonna get themselves nuked for me, you, or anyone else, if they can avoid it. I’d say the same for most other countries.
I never said I was a “China bad because not helping” person, just that I understand how people get there. Like is said, China isn’t gonna get themselves nuked for you, me, or anyone else, that’s isn’t China. It would be stupid to. I wouldn’t if I was them. But sometimes, I have to hate on the optics and commentary they give about it. Like when Chinese ambassadors go on about how great trade relations are going with Israel and how great of a trading partner they are. Like " oh cool, glad you having a good ol time with the genocidal maniac state."
I had so much more to say/better wording but I don’t have an hour to remember and retype it all, so this is what I got.
We know how bleak things are. We know what has been happening and what will likely happen. You don’t always have to spell it out when it doesn’t help anyone.
Why wouldn’t Israel destroy itself and take Palestine with them if China decided to militarily overthrow this entity? And who would the world blame? China. It’s always China’s fault.
There is an epidemic of “someone will do something and save us, we just have to hold out.” Across so much of the people I see. On here. On Reddit. IRL. And it need to be broken. Shit is bleak and I’m tired of seeing people hide from it. The world is bleak and it’s abandoned Palestine and nothing is more awful and disgusting than that. Nothing is more enraging that people not accepting what is happening. Thinking it’ll all be ok. It’s fucking not. No one is coming to save them, no one is coming to same us. We have to save ourselves, and maybe, if we hit enough people in the face with that, we won’t be alone in doing so. People need a wake up call. People need to top hiding from it.
And Israel will absolutely nuke Gaza on its way out. It’s one of many reasons no one will do anything. China isn’t going to get itself nuked over it. They aren’t stupid. I am not in the “China bad because do nothing” crowd. I get it. And I accept the bleakness. The world leaders have pretty much quietly accepted they will let Palestine die to prevent global nuclear war. My gripe isn’t that China isn’t doing anything. They do what they can. I am sure of that. It’s that damn I could go without seeing shit like their ambassadors going on about how great their trade relations are with Isn’treal and how great partners they are and all that shit. And I can see why people form the opinion that they are just sipping mimosas while all this goes on.
I don’t agree with everything written here, but I think this is a decent critique of what’s happening under Liberalism Oscar Wilde 1891
That pretty much sums up liberalism, what it does, how it carries out it’s evils while pretending to be good and how imo. we desperately need healthy Individualism. But I am struggling to figure out how to pitch this. Right now I’m trying the approach of: “I see you’re trying to rescue people here, that’s awesome that you care, but we really need to do something about what’s causing it.”
But people are so propagandized they don’t listen to me. I’m talking about building power locally and then we can use it to assist other causes, but they don’t want to build power. They keep on relying on private industry and show no interest to work with me to build an alternative. Shit’s so bleak, but I’ll try to figure out something.
I tried to convince a person I know is a liberal today that like, changing the “current regime” in the Whitehouse will not stop what is happening and that this shits not gonna just get better and there no “weathering this crazy phase.”
And it basically made me realize that… We’re doomed. These fucking people. They will just pretend like everything is fine until they are being shoved into an incinerator. They really just cannot fathom that things won’t just “be ok.” It honestly was part of what spawned my entire rant here… I just… How? How can people be so god damn delusional? I am actually going insane. I can feel my mental faculties snapping a little bit more every time I interact with them.
I know I’m going to sound cheesy and like what you’ve already heard before, but you have to approach it dialectically.
The more ignorant and incompetent the system re-produces the easier it will be to defeat. They’re a paper tiger.
China’s foreign policy has always been shit. Even the most hard-core MLs on this site know that. What I am not gonna do is tell China how to build their socialism when my own country keeps glazing pissrael and we haven’t built anywhere near a possible revolution.
I mean, they could do a Trump strategy and declare an economic blockade on Israel and put tariffs on anyone who does business with Israel. But they’re too busy complying to the WTO for some reason…
To enforce that economic blockade, you have to declare war to the entire West and decouple completely from the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all).
As long as the West is willing to save their Zionist dog by bleeding their economies dry, there is no viable way to do an economic blockade without a military siege.
The problem with people here is that they see the entity as something separate rather than something within the Western system. To eradicate Israel, you have to destroy the West.
Why don’t they stop Chinese companies from doing business with Israel then? At the very least they could do that.
Ending trade with Israel means nothing if the U.S. and the EU keep financing, arming, and shielding Israel on every international stage. If we delve into this idea further, we will actually find that it will hurt the Global South as a whole instead of actually hurting Israel because it will push the West for more vicious actions toward China(examples: weaponizing the USD, weaponizing maritime shipping and oil routes, worse coercion than before to the point of blackmail to isolate China from the Global South). As long as the viable alternatives to the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all) are not ready, any actions like this from China will only trigger more confrontation that will affect everyone including the Palestinians.
That’s why I will highlight once again that seeing Israel as something separate from the West instead of something from within is a big problem that will only lead you to oversimplification.
If we really want the end to the genocide instead of performative actions that will lead us nowhere, Israel’s lifeline must be destroyed and that lifeline is U.S’s and EU’s. military aid, markets, weapons, UN protection. The US and the EU must collapse as a whole.
Excellent response (as always)!
This would involve an immediate reaction by the west and probably end up being almost as bad as taking physical action in the long run. It would only really hurt China and China isn’t going to take actions that hurts itself. It’s not in their playbook.
Yes, but that’s exactly what’s frustrating in their foreign policy. They won’t do anything that upsets the West. Even Russia was willing to eat up all the sanctions, but China won’t do anything. Eventually that will come back to bite them. After all, the destabilization of the Middle East is part of the US plan to destroy China. But the CPC doesn’t seem worried, so what do I know?