Good, burqas and niqabs are never a choice. They’re always imposed upon women and girls via violence, coercion, and intimidation. They’re tools of oppression and should be banned everywhere.
“Choices are what I say they are.”
People can wear clothing for any reason they want, not just the reasons you think they should be able to.
All theistic religions are harmful (not just Islam), but there are at least two major issues with oppressive laws like this:
- It’s just Islamaphobia (racism). Singling out clothing that Muslims would wear and ignoring crosses or other religious clothing kind of gives away the underlying motivation for these bans.
- Policing this shit will always cause more harm than good. It would be authoritarian as fuck.
Let me break this down because this is the most moronic take in this entire thread.
“Choices are what I say they are.”
People can wear clothing for any reason they want, not just the reasons you think they should be able to.
Only if they actually have a choice… which they don’t. That’s the whole point here. It doesn’t matter how many token muslim you find to claim otherwise, it’s very well documented that these veils are not optional. They are enforced by violence, fear, intimidation, and coercion for most women and girls. It’s like saying that black slaves in the south had a choice to wear shackles and chains because very technically it could be a choice for some. White slave owners would claim it is, shackled slaves would say it is out of fear or brainwashing, and there might be a comically limited number of individuals who really do it out of choice… but that’s not exactly the rule, now is it? We both know it’s ain’t. Your argument replaces all context with a morally bankrupt principle that holds no weight.
All theistic religions are harmful (not just Islam)
This is just “all lives matter” with a twist of misogynistic apologia.
It’s just Islamaphobia (racism). Singling out clothing that Muslims would wear and ignoring crosses or other religious clothing kind of gives away the underlying motivation for these bans.
First of all, islam is a religion and not a race. There are muslims of literally every race and ethnic group so the very notion that one can be racist against muslims as if they’re a coherent racial group is mind numbingly ignorant. islam is a religion, and therefore it is an ideology. There’s nothing morally wrong or inherently irrational about being against islam. It’s a violent, oppressive religion full of hate and falsehoods. It’s perfectly rational and morally just to be against an ideology this hateful. The paradox of tolerance says that a free and tolerant society cannot tolerate the intolerant, and islam is intolerant.
Second of all, the issue here is NOT religious symbolism or clothing. It’s these specific veils for women in islam are made and used for the exact purpose of oppressing women and girls. That’s why they exist, that’s how they’re used, and that’s why they’re a problem. They’re made to rob women and girls from their agency, from their individuality, from their freedoms. It’s well established that these clothes are enforced through fear, coercion, and violence and not through actual choice.
Policing this shit will always cause more harm than good. It would be authoritarian as fuck.
It’s literally the opposite dingus. These laws are outlawing any oppressive practice that robbing women and girls from the rights. This restores their rights and integrates them into society. You have to be either brain dead or completely evil to defend the insanely horrific oppressive cult over the actual victims. You entire argument is just you defending the freedoms of the oppressors to oppress. This doesn’t make you seem like a princpled and level headed human rights champion like you think it does.
This law isn’t oppressive for kids forced to wear a fucking bag and indoctrinated into a cult. Religion is a monstrous evil.
There is no judgement mechanism that the state can employ that can accurately determine when a person is forced to wear something that they may choose to. Attempting to enforce such judgement will always cause more harm than any perceived good.
What about child marriage? Since “there is no judgement mechanism to determine if it was forced.” And should we let people sell their organs, too, since we can’t prove coercion?
Ultimately, you’re right, we can’t make these cults illegal, but we can make the cultist’s lives as difficult as possible. And we should.
Let me put it another way. Anyone who thinks women must wear black bags on their heads is a piece of shit. Since many people will be helped by this law, and only pieces of shit will be inconvenienced, it is a good law.
The complete inability to acknowledge this kind of obvious facts about the world is why the left doesn’t win elections. It’s literally written in law in places like Iran and Afghanistan and is often the first thing muslim women stop doing the moment the authoritarian grip starts slipping.
Ah yes, the nebulous left who refuse to acknowledge that… Italy is the same country as Iran or Afghanistan???
Iran and Afghanistan are irrelevant in a conversation discussing the harms or perceived benefits of the authoritarian and Islamaphobic ban that Italy is enacting. Italy is the country implementing the ban, and Italy does doesn’t mandate the wearing of clothing associated with Islam.
If you actually cared to prevent forced religious dress code, the thing you would push for is that countries with such laws repeal the laws, rather than cheering when countries with no such laws implement authoritarian bans to prevent people from wearing what they want.
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A bag? These aren’t American prisoners of war.
Plus, banning hijab is one way to strip access to education for women in conservative families. This was a big point that was raised here when it happened. Look, Hijab is repressive, there’s no arguing about that, but it also let’s women who otherwise would have not been let step out of the house, to step out and gain education. Most women don’t wear hijab by choice, but because of family pressure. Banning Hijabs in schools would only make it worse for them.
All theistic religions are harmful
I think most people who say this only have experience with Abrahamism and make sweeping generalisations about it. At best, people have read some European history, but that’s still a very biased sample.
Nope. I mean all theistic beliefs. I became an anti-theist after many years of being a deist. I am familiar with at least one non-Abrahamic theistic belief (deism). And I know a little about others.
But there is no exceptional theism that will ever justify the belief in god(s). We can’t know if god(s) exist. They likely don’t, but that cannot be proven right or wrong, so we should adopt the default position: “we don’t know”. Believing in a consequential claim with no evidence is a great way to believe in harmful lies.
Shaping your identity, ethics, or other major facets about who you are around the (very likely untrue) unfalsifiable belief in god(s) is a dangerous thing to do. If you’re willing to believe such a consequential and unfalsifiable claim, your theism can be used to justify any harmful beliefs.
Beliefs influence actions, and actions have consequences. That doesn’t change just because your preferred god(s) are different than the Abrahamic one.
Believing in a consequential claim with no evidence is a great way to believe in harmful lies.
It’s an equally good way to believe in beneficial lies. Whether the lies are helpful or not depends on the intention and competence of those who made them up. I fully support believing in lies that help society and make our lives happier.
I view religions as ways to make ideas easier to understand. They’re a form of data compression for human thoughts, that makes them easier to remember and to transmit. A JPEG is a “lie” because it’s lossy compression. It creates visual artefacts that aren’t in the original. But those artefacts are byproducts of a process that makes images smaller and easier to store on old hardware.
So if you want a culture that practices complex systems of politics and ethics and science for many many generations, you better have a great compression algorithm. Like a religion. With intelligent design of faith, religion can be a “lie” that makes a society healthy, strong, and nice to live in.
So that’s My critique of the philosophy being espoused here, that objective truth is a moral good. I don’t believe in objective truth, I think everything humans have yet gained the ability to know is some flavour of inaccurate. Best to choose helpful inaccuracies instead of harmful ones.
It’s an equally good way to believe in beneficial lies
That was addressed in my other comment. And if you believe that the reasons for doing good things in the world are “beneficial lies”, I’d say that’s another issue with theism warping your view of reality. You don’t need “beneficial lies” to do good in the world. You merely need the desire and ability to do good – neither of which require theism. But the lies that people are influenced by will contribute to harmful beliefs and actions, which is the main problem with theism.
So that’s My critique of the philosophy being espoused here, that objective truth is a moral good.
I am not appealing to an “objective truth”. I’m appealing against the solopsism and nihilism required to believe something you know is unfalsifiable. If you can’t know something is true, be honest with yourself and others. Your position on the matter should be “it cannot be proven/disproven; we cannot know”. Not, “I believe in it, despite it being unfalisifiable”.
You don’t need “beneficial lies” to do good in the world.
I think I do. I don’t believe in absolute truth. I think we can only ever choose which lies to believe in.
Good lies, designed competently by well-meaning leaders, will make the world better.
You don’t need to believe in an “absolute truth”. But you shouldn’t adopt an affirmative belief in things that you know cannot be proven or disproven. The only honest answer to such a matter – a belief in god(s) – is: “it cannot be proven/disproven; we cannot know”; not, “I believe in it, despite it being unfalisifiable”. The latter is harmful.
Religion is a manmade technology that is useful as hell when it comes to keeping existential dread at bay long enough to procreate
It does a lot more than that. In Australia, it’s been used to prevent violence, maintain the environment, and aid in resource use for thousands of years.
Theistic beliefs are a terrible way to determine what is true, especially when theism is not only simultaneously used to justify harm (bigotry, supremacy, exploitation), but also unnecessary for achieving caring about justice (rights, environmental conservation, veganism, anti-capitalism, etc.).
Do some theists end up doing and believing progressive and beneficial things? Yes, but a house built on a weak foundation can fall apart much more easily than one built on a solid one. You should do good in the world because that is the kind of person you want to be, not because of a (very likely untrue) belief you adopted that cannot be falsified.
I just feel like taking this stance a little too hard makes philosophy = bad. There is a difference when beliefs conflict with being just, I agree. But good religion is built on deep conviction, in my mind, and approaches a sort of chicken-or-the-egg relationship with truly righteous acts.
but a house built on a weak foundation can fall apart much more easily than one built on a solid one
I’d say it’s pretty bleedin’ obvious that the house with the strongest foundation is the world’s oldest living cultural group: Aboriginal Australians. Obviously, belief in the Rainbow Serpent has greatly benefitted their ancient nations. They preserved knowledge of the sea level rise at the end of the ice age through 10,000 years, that’s the best history-keeping in the world. I’d say Aboriginal religions are carefully calibrated machines of political technology, creating good societies through social engineering.
The results speak for themselves: Believing in the Rainbow Serpent is the right thing to do, because it makes the world a better place. So I believe.
I didn’t know that about Aboriginal religion, but I have heard of some heady, trance monk type practices (like near interdimensional transcendence stuff) which I appreciate. Can’t remember if it involved straight up psychedelics or just meditation, which is always mindblowing to me.
Something about all these first peoples, man, they really knew how to weave a mythos between the world and ourselves on every level.
It’s because of thousands of years of practice!
The geopolitical west is so politically unstable, they can’t develop their myths properly. Every few hundred years, it’s another cultural revolution with them! With all that turmoil, it’s no wonder their cultural development is so stunted.
I think with the help of science, we can develop cultures fast enough to keep up with modern life. But not the west’s modern science. We need some more advanced psychology, like what the First Australians have.
It’s just Islamaphobia (racism). Singling out clothing that Muslims would wear and ignoring crosses or other religious clothing kind of gives away the underlying motivation for these bans.
The law almost certainly talks about face covering broadly and equally prohibits you to wear a ski-mask to school whether you’re a muslim or not.
The same law, which, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread?
That is a great way to put it and cuts right at the underlying prejudice of the thinly-veiled bigoted motivation of such laws.
Thanks but I think it’s from Anatole France.
So no more masks during covid, right?
In France where this law is in place the ban does not apply if the covering is required by another law or regulation, justified by health, required for work, or part of sport, a festival, or an artistic or traditional event.
Ah so only if you are a Muslim got it.
Ah, so you’re not even here for conversation but just to posture and act like a smug jerk - got it.
White people loooove to “liberate” muslim women’s oppression.
If you actually talk to hijabi women, there biggest worry is how the society view them as “backward” and “uncivilized”, not being forced to wear it. Its like how you guys haven’t even read about your own colonial past
I’m both Arab and come from an islamic country. You’re talking out of you’re ass.
Girls and women are coerced by society and their families through coercion, threats, and straight up violence to wear them. They exist as symbols of oppression to keep women down. Their whole point is to rob women of their individuality. If it was really a choice, muslim women and girls wouldn’t face the worst oppression in the world and in every damn society.
I volunteer at a community kitchen in germany that focuses on immigrants. Majority of them are muslims, some women wear hijabs other don’t. And I regularly ask them what their daily issues are so us organizers could help them if they need help.
Their biggest issues are housing crisis and joblessness. On the topic of hijab, they have told me how they feel judged for wearing one. Especially the converts cuz their skin color and accent is german but they are wearing hijabs.
I’m both Arab and come from an islamic country
Do you really think legitimacy and expertise on a topic comes from having a certain ethnicity and nationality?
Why mention that unless to use it as a logical fallacy called appeal to authority.
Rest of your comment is just plain islamophobia so not gonna engage on it
On the topic of hijab, they have told me how they feel judged for wearing one. Especially the converts cuz their skin color and accent is german but they are wearing hijabs.
First of all, we’re not talking about hijabs, we’re talking about niqabs and burqas. Second of all, your experience, assuming that it’s even true, is entirely anecdotal. Meaning it’s not exactly evidence because it’s not falsifiable. Finally, this doesn’t even attempt to address my points about how these veils are evil tools of oppression, so what the hell are you even talking about?
Do you really think legitimacy and expertise on a topic comes from having a certain ethnicity and nationality?
No dingus, I brought that up as a counter example to the moronic statement that you made. You said this
“White people loooove to “liberate” muslim women’s oppression.”
This is you directly saying that you believe that certain races and ethnicities disqualifies people from having legitimacy and expertise. I brought up my background so that YOU can’t use this bullshit excuse to dismiss legitimate criticism.
You can’t even stay logically consistent two comments in a row.
Why mention that unless to use it as a logical fallacy called appeal to authority.
Funny you say this because the very first sentence in your comment is an appeal to authority. I guess you’re beyond irony.
Rest of your comment is just plain islamophobia so not gonna engage on it
You’re the type of person who would’ve defended segregation because it’s racist against white supremacists. What an unbelievably dumb notion and even dumber cop out.
Damn, i’d be worried to get beaten and or killed by my lunatic husband.
Ah so let’s just ask the mutilated woman if the small girls should now also be mutilated like it has been in the last centuries. Oh they indeed want to keep their tradition of mutilation going? Whoops, well tough luck then, eh? At least according to your line of thought.
Clothes. We’re talking about clothes here.
There are the exact same arguments for both of these issues, from both sides.
Maybe you should try to talk to the non “hijabi” women instead, see what they think of the crap you say. Almost like it’s a complex topic, and shouting “colonialism” doesn’t help anyone
burqas and niqabs are never a choice
Not after you’ve banned them, certainly
This is like saying shackles on black slaves in the American south in 1800s is a choice. The enslaved black people never had a choice even if they claim that they did. This is the same.
This is like saying shackles on black slaves in the American south in 1800s is a choice.
More akin to saying that banning the N-word, with the explicit intent of going after black musicians and political dissidents, will end racism.
Police arresting and humiliating women who leave the house wearing the wrong clothes aren’t unshackling anyone.
That’s a bad analogy. The n word is offensive, but not inherently oppressive. These veils are inherently oppressive. They are tools of oppression. That’s why they fit the shackles analogy that I used, it’s direct comparison. Banning these veils is like banning slaves from being shackled. Is it full liberation? Perhaps not, but it’s still a good step in the right direction. If you really don’t like the shackles analogy then circumcision comes to mind as another apt comparison. Can it be a choice? Technically. Is that actually the case for the vast majority? No. Is banning circumcision humiliating to people who are circumcised? No, the rules serve to help prevent more cases of people going through such experiences. Same logic applies here.
These women aren’t the offenders, they’re victims. The next step should be to provide them with resources to report and escape from anybody who is trying to force them to wear these oppressive clothes. You keep pretending that they’re a choice, but again, it’s not for enough to where it’s a genuine issue.
The n word is offensive, but not inherently oppressive.
That’s certainly an opinion
How is it wrong? Slurs are offensive because they’re derogatory, but at the end of the day they’re still words. These veils physically deprive women and girls of their freedoms. That’s a huge difference.
Burqas and niqabs aren’t even required, unlike hijabs, and are instead part of a conservative movement.
That being said, this still reads a bit off. You can apply that logic to all “feminine” acts.
“Makeup is never a choice. They are always forced upon women by tradition, patriarchy, and beauty standards. They’re tools of oppression and should be banned everywhere.”
At the end of the day, I think governments should simply not have police dictating gender-specific clothing.
That’s the thing though, hijabs are NOT required in the islamic scriptures. The most the quran says is for women and men to act modestly. But that ultimately doesn’t mean anything because women are literally treated like cattle in islam. They’re considered mentally deficient, impure creatures that exist as property for men. They have no rights, they have no agency, they have no dignity in islam. Your point comes across as a red herring because it disregards all the context and tries to pretend this is purely about clothes. It’s not.
That is not even mentioning the most important reasons I see for the ban.
Security/safety and inclusivity.
Security/safety, this law is about schools, a major safety concern is keeping track of who is authorized to be in the school. Garmets that cover the face makes this way more difficult.
How do you prevent unauthorized personal from accessing the school if you can’t even identify who is authorized?
Inclusivity, it is far easier to make friends and integrate into society if other’s can see you face, it make it far easier to communicate (most of our communications are non-verbal after all) and play with friends.
it is far easier to make friends and integrate into society if other’s can see you face
For neurotypicals. As an autistic person, I don’t really see the big deal about looking at faces. They might as well be ankles for all I care about them.
How many 4’ people do you regularly identify as a threat?
It’s for the safety of society AND the girls are who are forced to wear these oppressive clothes
That has nothing to do with if they’re authorized to be in the schools, which was your concern.
That wasn’t my comment. My point is that safety goes both ways in this case.
How dare you bring up women and girls when we are defending the right of their fascistic cults to dehumanize them!
It’s completely wild to me that there are people who are proudly defending horrific oppression as some sort weird twisted freedom
It introduces "A 30 per cent cap on the number of students in a class who do not have an adequate command of Italian, more tools for learning our language
Let’s have a little bit of fascism, as a treat. I’ll bet those “tools for learning [the Italian] language” are shit. As if conservatives would spend money to help foreigners.
I’d also say Giorgia Miloni is more than just a “little bit” of fascism. Her party knows what torch they carry.
She is a fascist, and if that infamous news clip is what it seemed, she’s a drug user too.
Not sure what to make of the limit to be honest. Where I live we’ve never had people in school who don’t speak the language.
Lol this is done in United States already. Since the 90s really 😂😂
Am I understanding correctly that this is about full face veils? Did anyone even wear these?
This looks like the obvious distraction tactic to placate to racists by bullying Muslims while not solving any actual economic issues.
Not at school, but full face veils are becoming more common in certain towns.
So why are they banning them at schools?
Why aren’t you thinking of the children? /s
Point of laws like these is to extend on them later.
They could raise age from school kids to work-place now. Or simply expand it to hijabs, hats, and wigs. To protect the children, of course.
People start wearing covid masks again to avoid camera face detection? Perfect foundation to ban masks now!
Am I understanding correctly that this is about full face veils? Did anyone even wear these?
Nope
One step closer to Mussolini coming back.
his grandaughter is in a far right political party, so its pretty close.
The party Meloni used to run.
Fascists
Just to make it clear what they are banning, since people seem to have conflicting ideas
Hijabs, chadors, dupattas keep being ok and not banned, obviously.
Personally, I think it’s a good idea, but I wonder if it’s doing anything to help with the more fundamental problem that somebody is making girls and women dress like that.
Caping number of foreign students to 1/3 does seem to be a effective way of integrating them. But banning clothing is like curing the symptom instead of cause, and is rather racist.
curing the symptom instead of cause, and is rather racist
Your idea that we should cure islam seems a bit worse.
Any religion is pointless and bad. Also what I meant is that believing in need of wearing clothes because god said so is caused by lack of integration and racism likely.
She’s smart enough not to let it show too much, but her base is neck-deep in replacement theory and stuff like that
Weird fact I just learned is her and the Italian far right are obsessively into Lord of the Rings and have fascist LotR cosplay camps.
Caps number of foreign students per class.
The fuck?
This is actually proven way of integrating foreigners. Except it comes at the cost of education accessability sometimes.
