Asking this because i’m a newbie in the topic of socialism and i want to understand whether China is actually considerable socialist or not. A lot of the stuff we see are Chinese brands, owned by privates (at least i think so, correct me if i’m wrong), making tons of capital. So what’s actually going on?
Public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, and workers control the state. Other comrades have explained in much better detail, but this is a simplified version.
To understand this issue, one must first clarify the distinction between socialism and communism. Socialism is the transitional stage between capitalism and communism. During this phase, the working class has seized state power and begun guiding the economy toward its next logical form. Communism, by contrast, is the ultimate goal, at this stage, through collectivization and proletarianization, class distinctions are completely eliminated, and the state (having lost its reason for existence) gradually withers away.
Here, we must define the nature of the state. The state is an instrument of class rule, a specific structure within the government through which the ruling class implements its will. Consequently, when class distinctions are abolished, the state’s reason for existence vanishes. Rendered purposeless, it naturally proceeds toward dissolution.
During the transitional phase, the key lies in controlling the “commanding heights” of the economy. These primarily encompass finance, transportation, heavy industry, and the sectors driving macro-level development. By firmly controlling these commanding heights, the ruling class of society can steer the direction of economic development, such as by directing the overall economic trajectory through the provision or withholding of resources such as capital and infrastructure.
Retaining a secondary market economy for developing industries has been the orthodox view of early socialist development since the time of Marx. Marxism is not a philosophy of moralizing. Its stance on private property is not rooted in the belief that such property is morally evil or bad, but rather Marxism is a branch of scientific inquiry that employs evidence and material analysis to objectively examine the evolution of human society, construct models, and use those models to predict future societal trajectories.
The Marxist approach to private property stems from Marx’s analysis: the material basis of private property lies in the decentralization of production, however, as production processes grow increasingly complex, markets exhibit a natural tendency toward the concentration of production. Marx termed this concentration of production “socialization.”
Centralized production rests on a different foundation than decentralized production. When centralized production is combined with private ownership, social stability diminishes, as this arrangement allows a tiny minority to exercise precise control over every aspect of society. As Lenin pointed out in Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism:
Competition becomes transformed into monopoly. The result is immense progress in the socialisation of production. In particular, the process of technical invention and improvement becomes socialised.
This is something quite different from the old free competition between manufacturers, scattered and out of touch with one another, and producing for an unknown market. Concentration has reached the point at which it is possible to make an approximate estimate of all sources of raw materials (for example, the iron ore deposits) of a country and even, as we shall see, of several countries, or of the whole world. Not only are such estimates made, but these sources are captured by gigantic monopolist associations. An approximate estimate of the capacity of markets is also made, and the associations “divide” them up amongst themselves by agreement. Skilled labour is monopolised, the best engineers are engaged; the means of transport are captured—railways in America, shipping companies in Europe and America. Capitalism in its imperialist stage leads directly to the most comprehensive socialisation of production; it, so to speak, drags the capitalists, against their will and consciousness, into some sort of a new social order, a transitional one from complete free competition to complete socialisation.
Production becomes social, but appropriation remains private. The social means of production remain the private property of a few. The general framework of formally recognised free competition remains, and the yoke of a few monopolists on the rest of the population becomes a hundred times heavier, more burdensome and intolerable.
Marx predicted that as the scale of enterprises expanded, this social instability would grow, eventually becoming so acute that society could not move forward without resolving the contradiction. Given that the socialization of production is the inevitable result of the immense scale necessitated by complex production technologies, Marx did not believe that large enterprises (especially those that had grown by genuinely producing high-quality goods) could simply be broken up without destroying their technical foundations. Therefore, the structure of ownership surrounding them had to be changed, they had to be transformed from private property into public property. A moralistic analysis might argue that private property is inherently evil and should therefore be outlawed entirely. Such a mindset leads to the view that socialism is merely a matter of passing a law declaring all private property illegal, and that any nation failing to do so is an evil traitor betraying true socialism.
However, Marx’s analysis contains no moral condemnation of private property, rather the expropriation of industry is proposed for a very specific purpose: to resolve the contradiction between the socialization of production and the privatization of appropriation. Consequently, there is a necessary precondition for expropriation: the industry in question must have already achieved a sufficient level of socialization. If the state were to take over an economic sector dominated by small-scale proprietors (where production has not yet been socialized and operations are not yet conducted on a national scale) it would effectively be assuming control of a sector that objectively and materially lacks the infrastructure and technology required for nationwide operation. This would introduce a contradiction between socialized appropriation and private production. A moralistic stance ultimately leads to the pursuit of policies that run counter to Marxist analysis and are doomed to failure. Indeed, Lenin noted in The Tax in Kind that nationalizing small producers would amount to economic suicide for the party attempting it, in "Left-Wing” Communism: An Infantile Disorder, he also emphasized the necessity of learning to coexist with small producers. In The Communist Manifesto, Marx explicitly stated that it is impossible to nationalize all small producers overnight; instead, the largest enterprises must be nationalized first to foster rapid economic growth, thereby encouraging the rise of national giants and allowing for the gradual expansion of expropriation over a long period.
The Marxist vision of a classless society is not one where private enterprise is outlawed and punishable by law. Rather, it is a society where state-owned enterprises are so technologically advanced and efficient that any attempt to launch a private business would result in a total lack of competitiveness and inevitable bankruptcy. What prevents you from starting a private business is not the law, but the material conditions of the real world.
What the Soviet Union implemented was a wartime economy designed to prepare for the war against Germany. This was not the path to socialism generally envisioned by Marxists, but largely a creation of Stalin to deal with the material reality of the approachingwar in Europe, hence its designation in Chinese literature as the “Stalin Model.” It was essentially a revision of classical Marxism; while many emulated it due to its apparent short-term effectiveness, that success held true only when the economy was heavily concentrated on heavy industry.
When the time came to shift toward light industry, they encountered the very contradiction predicted by classical Marxism: the state simply lacked the material infrastructure to meet all light-industrial needs on a national scale. Naturally, black markets run by small producers emerged to fill this void. However, due to Soviet legal constraints, the state was compelled to constantly suppress these small producers who had spontaneously stepped in to address the system’s shortcomings. This once again confirms Lenin’s warning that time should not be wasted attempting to suppress small-scale producers who emerge spontaneously due to the inherent economic inefficiency of the system.
However, this situation fostered widespread corruption. Because their economic activities were fundamentally incompatible with the large-scale, nationalized production of all goods, the re-emergence of small-scale producers was inevitable forced to operate illegally, they became part of the black market, an unregulated secondary economic sector that, already operating outside the law, would leverage its influence to try to undermine the Soviet government.
In summary, China is undoubtedly a socialist country, and its development path aligns with the fundamental principles of Marxist historical materialism. Retaining secondary market-economy elements does not constitute a departure from socialism; rather, it is an orthodox and necessary means (as identified by Marx and Lenin) of developing the economy during a stage when productive forces have not yet been fully socialized. By firmly controlling key economic sectors such as finance and heavy industry, the state ensures that market mechanisms consistently serve the overarching objective of the transition to socialism. True socialism lies not in forcibly eliminating private enterprises through moralistic legislation, but in ultimately and historically transcending private ownership by developing the highly advanced material conditions of public ownership.
Incredibly well stated analysis, comrade!
Thank you
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: see here
Is China State Capitalist?
- The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2 The largest bank, construction, electricity, and energy companies in the world, are CPC controlled entities, subject to the 5 year plans laid out by the central committee.
- Workplace democracy in action in the CPC.
- Is modern day china communist? Is it staying true to communist values?
- Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
- Is the CPC committed to communism?
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The myth of Chinese state capitalism. Did Deng really betray Chinese socialism?
- Tsinghua University- Is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics real socialism, or is it state Capitalism?
- Isn’t China revisionist for having a capitalist sector of the economy, and working with capitalists? Why isn’t it fully planned like the USSR was?
- Castro on why both China and Vietnam are socialist countries.
- Roderic Day - China has billionaires.
- What is socialism with Chinese characteristics (SWCC)?
- How is SWCC not revisionist? How is it any different from Gorbachev’s market reforms?, 2
- Domenico Losurdo - is China state capitalist?, 2
- Did Lenin say anything about Market Socialism, or productivism?
- Vijay Prashad - Is China capitalist?
Exhibit A: https://sci-hub.st/10.1080/13563467.2021.1899153
Exhibit B: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GCf1obSZ334&pp=ygUMYnVyeWluZyBkZW5n
… So when will the ban be coming in?
China doesn’t contribute to unequal exchange, it bypasses it. Jason Hickel, one of the people mentioned in your first article, is enormously supportive of China. I think you need to revisit unequal exchange and how it functions. Your second video is from a member of the “New Nationalists of America,” and further still you didn’t respond to any of the claims.
…ok…and now that you have said that do you have anything to direct me to further understand unequal exchange AND/OR to further help me understand how ALL members of the Chinese proletariat do not in some type of way get fucked over by unequal exchange please?
The prolewiki page on unequal exchange is a good primer. China itself is harmed by unequal exchange, because it’s primarily something higher wage countries benefit from.
…but you just said that no members of the Chinese proletariat are harmed by unequal exchange…wot?
China isn’t capitalist, what’s the point of sharing documents on unequal exchange and expecting a ban? China is exploited by the west to a decent degree, but they are developing rapidly and undermine that very system.
whats the point of ‘developing rapidly’ if you need to exploit some members of the proletariat to do so? 🤷🏿♂️
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Don’t listen to this clown’s vibes based analysis. China considers itself a transitional socialist state. That is, the economy contains elements of capitalism, but the state is under the control of the CPC (CCP is a derogatory term used by sinophobes), and the key pillars/commanding heights of the economy are state owned.
Does China have a billionaire capitalist class? Yes. Does this class weild political power? Not anymore than the average Chinese citizen. There are billionaires in the CPC, but very few and none of them occupy positions of power.
I’m sure other comrades will share some more comprehensive resources, but here’s a couple to get you started.
Ugh i hate how ignorant I still am. I was today days old when I learned CCP is a derogatory term.
Does China have a billionaire capitalist class? Yes. Does this class weild political power? Not anymore than the average Chinese citizen.
How can a billionaire capitalist class not wield political power? That just seems like a tautology. And not anymore than the average citizen? Hard to believe.
Because the state uses violence against them to suppress them when they try to wield undue influence. That’s the answer. It’s like why can’t Russian billionaires just walk into the US and buy the FBI out of their way? They can’t do that because the state uses violence against them to prevent them doing that. The US state does not use violence against its own bourgeoisie, against the trans-Atlantacist bourgeoisie who say get away with raping kids and get a slap on the wrist, who do Epstein stuff (separate case from aforementioned believe it or not), who engage in open corruption “lobbying” within the US. Who through their means exert influence directly on the government.
This isn’t to say China is perfect. Xi Jinping purged a lot of corrupt officials who were letting billionaires buy their way to breaking the law, to being exceptional, etc. A lot of officials were arrested and even executed. The fact is they’ll keep trying but China has antibodies. It has an ideologically communist military, an ideologically communist justice system, and ideologically communist state law enforcement and intelligence apparatus that serve the party. (Conversely the US also has countermeasures such as courts, laws written for bourgeoisie, intelligence and law enforcement, etc that ultimately restrain the proletariat)
It gets back to the nature of the dictatorship of the state. In the US you have the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The state exists to protect their interests and carry out their will and to oppress and control the proletariat. It doesn’t perfectly carry out the will of the bourgeoisie, it can sometimes fail to oppress the proletariat or let them get in a win here and there. In China it’s a dictatorship of the proletariat but it’s also as in the case with the inverse not perfect, it broadly serves the interests of the communist party guiding the proletariat but there are times where it may not adequately restrain billionaires or adequately uphold the interests of the proletariat.
It is the nature of things. Spotting a less than perfect record doesn’t mean much as no system is perfect. We must ask instead what it primarily does and how it is organized rather than nit-picking at a failure here and there. Otherwise we have confusion about the intent of the US DotB in it letting workers get a win here or there in this time or that.
Ask Jack Ma how that worked out for him when he tried it.
Many have tried. In the end, they all get the wall (not really, but sentenced to death with reprieve).
Sad you got downvoted for asking a completely fair question. Its naive to pretend that who wield a lot of capital do not have more influence than the average citizen. China isn’t perfect and it does have an issue with liberals here and there - at least from my very limited knowledge.
I would also like to know how the Billionaires of China can be said to exert no more influence than the average citizen, beyond just a vague gesture to the fact that sometimes a Billionaire will be arrested - presumably if they go too far or get too bold. Thats what I would assume anyway, so I’d love to actually know.Oh, I don’t think anyone believes that people in positions of power have equivalent influence as the average voter. That’s not going to be true in any society ever. Even in a perfectly flat world government the people who live somewhere should more say over what impacts them than their vote totals would allow.
Billionaires are billionaires because they have control over billions in assets. Simply by that alone they have more influence than a voter or even a dozen voters. However, billionaires do not have the political influence to use their power to entrench their power, only to use their power within boundaries set by the state on behalf of the people.
Mao put forth a very interesting theory centered on the question “how do we define the people?” His position was that while they were kicking the Japanese out of China, all Chinese were the people. But, once the Japanese are repelled, the people can only mean the peasant masses and the proletariat, and no longer includes the bourgeoisie, the petite bourgeoisie, and the supporters of them. In this way he mirrors Carl Schmitt in defining the political as the ability to define friend and enemy (interestingly so since we do not currently believe there was any way either thinker was able to be influenced by the other).
In contemporary China, while there is open and acknowledged collaboration with the bourgeoisie, it is also openly acknowledged that the bourgeoisie are not a part of “the people” and the party works for the people to bring about the conditions for universal liberation through the doctrine of the liberation of the working classes.
LOL, I love that you went all on with the confidence of an ignoramus and then at the last second just openly stated you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Do you have zero self awareness? Are you incapable of seeing that if you have no idea about socialism then you literally have no idea how to evaluate and analyze China’s systems?
For example, did you know that China has no freeholds on land, only leaseholds? Did you know that the state executes executives of companies that harm the public for profit? Did you know that in order to be a politician you have to pass rigorous tests that cover topics such as Marxist theory and the Xi himself had to take the test multiple times because it is meaningfully difficult and he had to actually work for it and wrestle with the complexities of Marxism in order to even get into the party?
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Literally for at least 100 years the word “socialism” has been used to mean the process of transition from capitalism to communism guided by a communist party.
China is a socialist country because it meets that definition.
It is authoritarian because it is a state. All states are authoritarian, by definition.
It is state capitalist because that’s what happens when a state guides a transition to communism within a capitalist world order.
And it’s called the Communist Party of China, not the Chinese Communist Party, because it is named in the tradition of all Communist Parties - CPUSA (Communist Party of the USA), PCC (Party Communista de Cuba), CPV (Communist Party of Vietnam), etc
I suspect it’d be a fun waving path drawn by their point on the political compass… not entirely in one direction consistently.
Authoritarian PLUS state capitalism is what, a combo of trot and anarchist jargon? Using it says they haven’t properly investigated the topic and are just repeating comfortable compatible left narratives










