Where did the idea that life should have meaning even come from? Do elephants worry about this? Because, if elephants don’t, then I won’t bother either.
It’s a human thing. People need “meaning”, which takes on all kinds of forms, from religiously following their sports club to… well, thinking about if there is meaning.
If life doesn’t have meaning, then what’s the reason for living? I think that’s where the search comes from. Some people need to answer the question “Why am I alive?” or “Why should I continue living?” And the search for a reason can easily turn into a search for meaning. If there’s no meaning, can there even be a reason? And if there is a reason, then that must be the meaning.
In nature, there is no search for reason or meaning because the focus is on survival, as individuals and as a herd. Is there enough food and water? Are there any predators around? Are the baby elephants safe? That’s basically all there is to it. No need to ask why.
Humans have added layers of separation between themselves and nature, so that survival is no longer a main daily concern (people living in poverty are a potential counterargument, but people in survival mode generally don’t have the time or energy to devote to questioning the meaning of life; hence the question itself has a reputation for being a bougie pastime).
The search for meaning emerges as a result of the human condition of surplus, convenience, and comfort. “I have all of this: why?” “Why do I have a job? So I can buy food. Why do I need to buy food? So I can live. Why do I need to live? 😳”
If you have people in your life, friends, family, community, or anyone else you care about, then it’s easier to find meaning. “I live for them.” Especially when someone is dependent on you. “My child needs me.”
In post-modern society, hyperindividualism and other phenomena lead to this chronic isolation where many people feel like their existence is separate and insignificant. So it’s not as easy to say “Well my friends/siblings/parents/neighbors would be sad if I was gone.” Unless you have a child who depends on you, literally no one actually needs you to live. And modern society encourages this sort of pitilessness. “Oh no, so-and-so died.” “Who?”
Furthermore, I think many of the pathologies of the modern psyche come from a failure to examine the meaning of life. Some people assume it’s whatever they were societally programmed to do: gain money, pursue ambitions, achieve your goals, be successful, or even “have a lot of sex.”
That’s why you have billionaires who literally can’t stop pursuing infinite growth. It’s toxic, it’s pathological, but they can’t stop because they’ve never questioned the meaning of life and simply assume that it’s “become as rich as possible.” Replace “rich” with “famous”/“powerful”/“popular” etc., whatever it is, and you find a person’s raison d’être.
Not everyone is so shallow of course. Maybe it’s something simpler like “see the world” “learn as much as I can” “become an expert in something” “master a hobby/craft/artform” “create beautiful/profound/innovative/meaningful things” or whatever.
But some people try everything, and can’t find anything that holds their interest enough to become a genuine raison d’être. They skip around from fleeting interest to fleeting interest, while the ground seems to fall away from them at every step. These are the people for whom an existential crisis isn’t merely a turning point in their lives, but a constant, even relentless state of being that they can’t seem to escape. These are the people for whom the “quest for the meaning of life,” or even just the simple search for a meaning, itself becomes their raison d’être.
And when that person finally realizes that the search for a meaning of life is itself a vain endeavor? May the Great Abyss have mercy on their soul… 😔
Well but elephants don’t spend all their time surviving. There’s plenty of times where they are satisfied with food and water and have nothing to do but lay around or play with mud or whatever. Same with almost every other species.
It’s just not necessary to search for any meaning. I personally don’t, I don’t think there is any to find. I’m perfectly happy to just try to fulfill whatever desires that come up in my mind. And there’s simply no shortage of fun stuff to do. Also, almost everything can be fun if you want it to.
Rest and relaxation is a survival function. It’s extremely human to think of that as “wasting time”/“not doing anything”
Sometimes, life loses its savor, things you once enjoyed start to feel dull, and worldly pleasures cease to hold your interest. Maybe not everybody experiences that, and maybe it’s just a phase for some who do, but for those of us for whom it’s more than a phase, it’s kind of invalidating to hear “just be happy bro, just try harder, just fulfill your desires and have fun” as if it were that simple. That’s not original advice, basically all the “normies” say the same thing. It’s not some breakthrough epiphany that I’ve never thought of before.
I haven’t disagreed with you there. I haven’t said “just pull yourself together and be happy”. I know that’s not quite how it works.
I’m just disagreeing that you need to know/search for your meaning to be happy, I’m saying that you can be happy without any meaning or looking for it. Your comment said that either a human has to have their meaning or be actively looking for it, and if they haven’t/aren’t then they’re in the “great abyss” or something. I just wanted to say that that’s not true.
Your comment said that either a human has to have their meaning or be actively looking for it, and if they haven’t/aren’t then they’re in the “great abyss” or something
That’s not what I said though. I said some people already have a raison d’être, and those people generally don’t feel the need to search for meaning. I also said people in survival mode typically don’t have the time or energy for it either. And I said that people who can’t find a stable raison d’être are typically the ones for whom the search for meaning becomes important. And lastly I said “the Great Abyss have mercy on their souls” referring to people whose raison d’être is the search for meaning realizing it’s a vain pursuit.
The last part could be applied to anyone whose raison d’être begins to feel vain, only for most people that can be the push to start a search for meaning. They might find a new raison d’être simply enough, or they might keep searching. It’s usually the people who can’t find a simpler raison d’être that sticks who end up making the search for meaning itself their raison d’être, as kind of a last resort, so that’s why I said “Great Abyss have mercy.” Imagine if you’ve already tried everything, to the extent that “trying everything” becomes the point, only for even that to be taken away from you. It’s an existential crisis that never ends.
Also, that “either/or” is a false dichotomy that I didn’t argue for. There are other options besides “actively searching for meaning” or “being in the abyss” (we’re all in the Abyss, by the way, some of us are just more conscious of it than others. Life is simpler before you realize this, when you care mostly about ordinary day-to-day stuff and don’t spare much thought for the ultimate existentiality of existence).
For example, someone could have a meaning of life. It could be survival, or taking care of their kids, or advancing in their careers, or growing their audience on social media (bleh), or even simply taking care of their pets, feeding stray animals, working on a hobby, playing tabletop games with friends, etc.
Not everyone questions these things and wonders “What is the ultimate point?” And some people who do are able to convince themselves that there is a point, or that there isn’t one but that’s fine because there doesn’t need to be a point. And they’re able to enjoy their time doing these things and they’re better off for it.
It’s the people who can’t get themselves out of bed most days without wondering “what’s the point?” and trying to convince themselves that it’s worth it to participate in life another day, who end up having to answer the question of “what’s the meaning of life” for themselves. As if that answer would rescue them from their condition, as if once found they’ll be able to get out of bed most days and actively participate in their own life without feeling like they’re carrying an extra hundred pounds on their shoulders. And it’s that last final hope that they don’t let go of when they finally realize that the search for meaning is ultimately vain. Hence, “Abyss have mercy.”
Remember:
IF:
If A, then B.
AND:
A.
THEN:
B.
(Modus ponens)
Or:
IF:
If A, then B.
AND:
Not B.
THEN:
Not A.
(Modus tollens)
Are both valid forms of argument. The following are not:
IF:
If A, then B.
AND:
Not A.
THEN:
Not B.
(Negating the antecedent, invalid)
Or:
IF:
If A, then B.
AND:
B.
THEN:
A.
(Affirming the consequent, invalid)
Basically, in each case, the conclusion does not follow from the premise, and that’s why it’s an invalid form of logic.
“If, then” statements do not imply mutual exclusivity. You have it confused with “If and only if, then” which is not what I said.
I see. Well, then all I’m saying is, the active pursuit of the question “what’s the meaning of life” is not actually what people who can’t get out of bed ‘have to’ do, that’s just in their minds.
People generally stop worrying about such things at some point, especially when they are in a position to follow their hobbies and passions & make satisfying progress & contributions through whatever they’re passionate about. That’s the meaning of life right there.
Where did the idea that life should have meaning even come from? Do elephants worry about this? Because, if elephants don’t, then I won’t bother either.
Perhaps the “Rat Park” study is relevant here.
It’s a human thing. People need “meaning”, which takes on all kinds of forms, from religiously following their sports club to… well, thinking about if there is meaning.
My life has no meaning, and I don’t need it to for me to be happy.
The belief that you “need” something for your life to be happy may be preventing people from being happy.
I disagree that people need meaning. The idea itself is a meme and the root of religion.
“Nobody exists on purpose”
That’s the beauty of life or the misery of it. Depending on how you personally frame it.
You disagree? For thousands of years (all of recorded history everywhere on the planet) people have been runing after meaning for their live.
Yeah. Old meme.
People have been running after religion at least as long, doesn’t mean it’s needed or real.
If life doesn’t have meaning, then what’s the reason for living? I think that’s where the search comes from. Some people need to answer the question “Why am I alive?” or “Why should I continue living?” And the search for a reason can easily turn into a search for meaning. If there’s no meaning, can there even be a reason? And if there is a reason, then that must be the meaning.
In nature, there is no search for reason or meaning because the focus is on survival, as individuals and as a herd. Is there enough food and water? Are there any predators around? Are the baby elephants safe? That’s basically all there is to it. No need to ask why.
Humans have added layers of separation between themselves and nature, so that survival is no longer a main daily concern (people living in poverty are a potential counterargument, but people in survival mode generally don’t have the time or energy to devote to questioning the meaning of life; hence the question itself has a reputation for being a bougie pastime).
The search for meaning emerges as a result of the human condition of surplus, convenience, and comfort. “I have all of this: why?” “Why do I have a job? So I can buy food. Why do I need to buy food? So I can live. Why do I need to live? 😳”
If you have people in your life, friends, family, community, or anyone else you care about, then it’s easier to find meaning. “I live for them.” Especially when someone is dependent on you. “My child needs me.”
In post-modern society, hyperindividualism and other phenomena lead to this chronic isolation where many people feel like their existence is separate and insignificant. So it’s not as easy to say “Well my friends/siblings/parents/neighbors would be sad if I was gone.” Unless you have a child who depends on you, literally no one actually needs you to live. And modern society encourages this sort of pitilessness. “Oh no, so-and-so died.” “Who?”
Furthermore, I think many of the pathologies of the modern psyche come from a failure to examine the meaning of life. Some people assume it’s whatever they were societally programmed to do: gain money, pursue ambitions, achieve your goals, be successful, or even “have a lot of sex.”
That’s why you have billionaires who literally can’t stop pursuing infinite growth. It’s toxic, it’s pathological, but they can’t stop because they’ve never questioned the meaning of life and simply assume that it’s “become as rich as possible.” Replace “rich” with “famous”/“powerful”/“popular” etc., whatever it is, and you find a person’s raison d’être.
Not everyone is so shallow of course. Maybe it’s something simpler like “see the world” “learn as much as I can” “become an expert in something” “master a hobby/craft/artform” “create beautiful/profound/innovative/meaningful things” or whatever.
But some people try everything, and can’t find anything that holds their interest enough to become a genuine raison d’être. They skip around from fleeting interest to fleeting interest, while the ground seems to fall away from them at every step. These are the people for whom an existential crisis isn’t merely a turning point in their lives, but a constant, even relentless state of being that they can’t seem to escape. These are the people for whom the “quest for the meaning of life,” or even just the simple search for a meaning, itself becomes their raison d’être.
And when that person finally realizes that the search for a meaning of life is itself a vain endeavor? May the Great Abyss have mercy on their soul… 😔
The beatings will continue until meaningfulness improves.
Well but elephants don’t spend all their time surviving. There’s plenty of times where they are satisfied with food and water and have nothing to do but lay around or play with mud or whatever. Same with almost every other species.
It’s just not necessary to search for any meaning. I personally don’t, I don’t think there is any to find. I’m perfectly happy to just try to fulfill whatever desires that come up in my mind. And there’s simply no shortage of fun stuff to do. Also, almost everything can be fun if you want it to.
Rest and relaxation is a survival function. It’s extremely human to think of that as “wasting time”/“not doing anything”
Sometimes, life loses its savor, things you once enjoyed start to feel dull, and worldly pleasures cease to hold your interest. Maybe not everybody experiences that, and maybe it’s just a phase for some who do, but for those of us for whom it’s more than a phase, it’s kind of invalidating to hear “just be happy bro, just try harder, just fulfill your desires and have fun” as if it were that simple. That’s not original advice, basically all the “normies” say the same thing. It’s not some breakthrough epiphany that I’ve never thought of before.
I haven’t disagreed with you there. I haven’t said “just pull yourself together and be happy”. I know that’s not quite how it works.
I’m just disagreeing that you need to know/search for your meaning to be happy, I’m saying that you can be happy without any meaning or looking for it. Your comment said that either a human has to have their meaning or be actively looking for it, and if they haven’t/aren’t then they’re in the “great abyss” or something. I just wanted to say that that’s not true.
That’s not what I said though. I said some people already have a raison d’être, and those people generally don’t feel the need to search for meaning. I also said people in survival mode typically don’t have the time or energy for it either. And I said that people who can’t find a stable raison d’être are typically the ones for whom the search for meaning becomes important. And lastly I said “the Great Abyss have mercy on their souls” referring to people whose raison d’être is the search for meaning realizing it’s a vain pursuit.
The last part could be applied to anyone whose raison d’être begins to feel vain, only for most people that can be the push to start a search for meaning. They might find a new raison d’être simply enough, or they might keep searching. It’s usually the people who can’t find a simpler raison d’être that sticks who end up making the search for meaning itself their raison d’être, as kind of a last resort, so that’s why I said “Great Abyss have mercy.” Imagine if you’ve already tried everything, to the extent that “trying everything” becomes the point, only for even that to be taken away from you. It’s an existential crisis that never ends.
Also, that “either/or” is a false dichotomy that I didn’t argue for. There are other options besides “actively searching for meaning” or “being in the abyss” (we’re all in the Abyss, by the way, some of us are just more conscious of it than others. Life is simpler before you realize this, when you care mostly about ordinary day-to-day stuff and don’t spare much thought for the ultimate existentiality of existence).
For example, someone could have a meaning of life. It could be survival, or taking care of their kids, or advancing in their careers, or growing their audience on social media (bleh), or even simply taking care of their pets, feeding stray animals, working on a hobby, playing tabletop games with friends, etc.
Not everyone questions these things and wonders “What is the ultimate point?” And some people who do are able to convince themselves that there is a point, or that there isn’t one but that’s fine because there doesn’t need to be a point. And they’re able to enjoy their time doing these things and they’re better off for it.
It’s the people who can’t get themselves out of bed most days without wondering “what’s the point?” and trying to convince themselves that it’s worth it to participate in life another day, who end up having to answer the question of “what’s the meaning of life” for themselves. As if that answer would rescue them from their condition, as if once found they’ll be able to get out of bed most days and actively participate in their own life without feeling like they’re carrying an extra hundred pounds on their shoulders. And it’s that last final hope that they don’t let go of when they finally realize that the search for meaning is ultimately vain. Hence, “Abyss have mercy.”
Remember:
Or:
Are both valid forms of argument. The following are not:
Or:
Basically, in each case, the conclusion does not follow from the premise, and that’s why it’s an invalid form of logic.
“If, then” statements do not imply mutual exclusivity. You have it confused with “If and only if, then” which is not what I said.
I see. Well, then all I’m saying is, the active pursuit of the question “what’s the meaning of life” is not actually what people who can’t get out of bed ‘have to’ do, that’s just in their minds.
“It’s just in your mind, bro. You just need to change your mindset”
But how do you know if elephants worry or not about it?
People generally stop worrying about such things at some point, especially when they are in a position to follow their hobbies and passions & make satisfying progress & contributions through whatever they’re passionate about. That’s the meaning of life right there.
Idk man, stories?