I love how every acab post inevitably brings out a bunch of uninformed libs in the comments talking about how pigs are only bad in America (as though the term ACAB was invented in America…) or how a society without them is completely inconceivable. As though badges grow on trees, like police are just a natural thing that sprung out of the ground.
The primary function of the police is to protect private property and enforce eviction. They’re state agents who are allowed to use violence against working class people, and do so to prevent us from overthrowing the ruling class and redistributing wealth and the means of production. They protect class hierarchy. They attack protestors. They use state violence against the disenfranchised and the marginalized. The “just doing their job” of the police is to protect and preserve the unequal distribution of power in society. They do so by using violence against the working class. The rest of anything else they do is a small fraction of their job and entirely secondary to their primary functions.
When there’s a power vacuum, gangs even worse than the police tend to fill it. Don’t get me wrong, the entire U.S. criminal justice system is rotten to the core, and causes large amounts of pointless suffering. BUT, there needs to be some sort of “police” to enforce the laws of society (and ideally, all those laws would be just). Even the Zapitistas had a form of police.
Also, I find “ACAB” cringe inducing. Sounds like something an edgy 14 year old came up with. And I’m not sure focusing on individuals (cops) instead of the institution itself is helpful.
ACAB as an acronym began in the early 20th century by workers who were striking in the UK. It is a term with a long, complex history behind it. Cops are the institution, so I’m not sure what you mean by individuals. Every member of the police force, from the top down, is a bastard. Every single one. There’s no exceptions to this. The very nature of law enforcement is being a bastard. It is a term that is meant literally. Law enforcement functions as a means to break strikes, to enforce private property and ownership of the means of production, to enforce rent and evictions, to terrorize the impoverished and the marginalized, to collect menial tax from the impoverished who cannot fight back against them, and above all else to act as the legal arm of state violence against working class people.
Individual cops may have done good actions. I’m sure there’s a cop out there who’s volunteered at a soup kitchen, sure. But that has nothing to do with him being a cop. That has nothing to do with the actual role he fulfills in day to day life, with the violence he enacts, with the system he supports.
The idea that police are holding back some tidal wave of horrifying crime is and has always been propaganda. Nearly every single woman I know has been a victim of sexual harassment or violence at some time in their lives, including myself. A lot of them have gone to police before. I don’t know a single person for whom that did literally anything good for them. I know 1 woman who was harassed literally across the country by people including police officers who said she was lying. The police don’t prevent murder. They don’t prevent violence of any kind that’s literally not their job. More often than not they are the ones committing acts of violence for which there are no repercussions.
I still find ACAB cringe inducing, and a bad slogan, but that’s an interesting origin I did not know about. I agree with most of what you’re saying.
I think the phrase “All Cops Are Bastards” seems to focus on cops/people, and not the institution of policing. I’m not sure if it’s effective messaging or not. Maybe it helps with striker or protestor solidarity, IDK.
I think police hold back organized crime (currently, in the U.S.). They maintain a “monopoly on violence.” I think if all police suddenly disappeared, other gangs would quickly take over the job. I.e. forcing people to pay them for “protection,” and stuff like that. This currently happens in many parts of world, and has happened in the U.S. in the past, so I don’t think it’s some far-out idea. As bad as the system currently is, I think a mafia or cartel controlling things would be worse. U.S. police, generally, don’t engage in racketeering or execute you without a trial (it does happen, but is not generally the case).
Don’t get me wrong, I think the current system is evil too, and it needs to be torn down and rebuilt in a radically different way. I agree with thr concept that police currently function mostly to protect capital and the ruling class, and are, themselves, a gang of sorts. But, I think a society will always need to maintain some kind of “police” to remove people who cause harm to others (who would then be rehabilitated, if possible).
I dunno man it’s really simple I dunno why you don’t get it. If I watch my coworker murder/rape someone and I do nothing about it, I’m just as much a bastard as the coworker.
It’s that simple.
Is being facist towards people born with a low intellectual capacity OK? They cant help it
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That’s not “being fascist”.
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They don’t necessarily have a low intellectual capacity, they’re just barred from becoming cops if they score too high. The cops are discriminating against people with high capacity and that’s not OK.
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The thing that is happening here is OK because they’re class traitors and 100.0% bastards. You’re licking boot.
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Police aren’t the problem it’s the culture and laws they enforce
E: sorry I think I might’ve misunderstood or spoke in a confusing way. I meant I think the police as an institution isn’t the problem. I think they are a necessary part of the justice system. I get the impression that there is a lot of problems with the current American police system (I’m not an American so correct me if I’m wrong). I think there are plenty of ‘bad’ police officers. I think a culture change in the police (institution) and adjustments to the laws they enforce would be good. I don’t think all police officers are bad though and I don’t think anyone who is a police officer should automatically be considered bad. I especially don’t think the police as an institution should not exist.
Getting shot in your own home during a no knock raid isn’t a culture problem.
Are the officers not part of that culture? Do they have no discretion in what laws they enforce and when?
Yeah they are. Yes they do? Are you asking rhetorically? Those answers seem obvious
I kinda thought you might put it together, but ok. Yes, those were rhetorical and obvious.
Police are responsible for police culture so pointing to culture doesn’t absolve them or change any of the math here. Same with the laws, they may not directly make them or have a say in them (unless you count police unions), but they can choose when to enforce them, when to not, and against whom. Again, your arguments aren’t changing any of the math here.
The problems of police are caused by the police and sustained by the police so they are entirely the fault of the police. Your comment seemed to imply that at least some of the blame should be taken from the police since it’s not them it’s the culture and the laws. I’m saying, it’s still all them. The culture and the laws are still on them.
I agree with everything you say. I think having a police force is a pragmatic choice to make. I think the idea that there is no redemption for the police force is irresponsible. I think police culture and laws need to be changed.
Any policing service which actually serves the people will not be descended from the modern day police. It will be a new organisation, with no association to the old.
Okay that’s fine but there will still be police and they will still be policing so what would be the point. It’d be much easier to fix the current system then start over
No, it’s much easier to make a new system. Because it’s impossible to fix the current one.
mentions IQ
very cool, very normal. Youre right, cops arent smart, or they wouldnt be cops! On unsmart people are cops, because unsmart people are evil!
acab includes people policing other peoples intellect
It’s a thing,
Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took the exam in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125. But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.
Hell yeah brother, no guns no police!! Hold up someone just stole my car and is extorting my family… Someone help plz :(
yeah, if there’s no cops around who’s gonna show up 4 hours late and shoot my dog after I report a robbery??
Is your dog on a leash or put in a kennel? Why are you reporting a robbery? You don’t need the police man!
Because cops routinely get anywhere in time to stop a crime. That’s one of the biggest flaws with the ‘cops make safe’ argument. They only work as a deterrent to crime if they’re actually there right when the crime happens. The only time they show up with any expediency is when there’s money to be protected.
Also, victim blame more.
We don’t need cops or prison man
Not in any way resembling what we have today. Good straw man tho.
Wat
Police are largely a gang of thugs, they serve Capital, not people.
Solving root causes makes police far less important.
So what do you propose for solving root causes and enforcing regulations? You have a Disney movie I could watch?
Expanding social programs and employing social workers instead of police for mental health crisis events.
Crime happens because of poverty and desparation for the most part, not because some people are born evil.
Socialism would eliminate the biggest sources of poverty.
What type crime are you talking about? Petty theft? 🤣 Social workers, projects and food stamps?? This movie sucks ass
Almost all crime. Do you have a point?
I think you’ve made mine. Thanks
More Zach Snyder;
Marxists argue that the economic system of capitalism itself causes crime. The whole system is based on the exploitation of the working class by the ruling class, leading to the ever-increasing wealth of one class and ever-increasing poverty of the other. source
Kewl article. So your fantasy societies have no crime therefore no need for police. I’ll make sure to bookmark that laterz
Unlike the fantasy we live in now, where the police are not obligated to protect you?
The U.S. Supreme Court has also ruled that police have no specific obligation to protect. In its 1989 decision in DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, the justices ruled that a social services department had no duty to protect a young boy from his abusive father. In 2005’sCastle Rock v. Gonzales*, *a woman sued the police for failing to protect her from her husband after he violated a restraining order and abducted and killed their three children. Justices said the police had no such duty.
You are right, both of those cases were directly related to crimes caused by capitalist societies. Police were never intended to protect you, only to enforce laws and arrest those who break those laws, they aren’t hired bodyguards or private investigators.
Hold up someone just stole my car and is extorting my family
Someone like the police
WHO IS WATCHING THE WATCHMEN??!!!
You are right, we should go somewhere where there is no police.
No we should make it so that there’s no police where we’re at.
You are damn right! I can take what I want and kill whoever…I don’t even have to bury the bodies…No one around to stop me from changing towns every couple days and rinse/repeat. Not because I’m struggling but I enjoy killing…Less people means less carbon emissions, amirite?
You sound disturbed, mate.
I’ve been a lot of different places including prison and I know the way people act when there is no law. Maybe I am considered disturbed because I can’t unsee things that I’ve seen.Decent people, including you, would do the same or become prey. People are animals after all. 😇
Sounds wild. One wonders how humanity survived for thousands of years until police forces were created last century…
I don’t know in what shithole of a country you guys live to hate cops, but here they are just decent, helpful protectors they ought to be. Never ever met one single piece-of-shit-cop in my life. There surely are rotten apples, but that is due to being human, not being a cop. There is no field of anything where everything’s sunshine and lollipops. Maybe it’s a case of how you treat them? You know, like give respect, earn respect? That thing?
You know, I’ve also never personally had too bad of an encounter with a cop. I mean, I was falsely arrested once, but the cops were chill, only half of them had their guns pointed at me for no reason. They were just doing their job though, the others were all super chill!
No. Doesn’t matter. You see DAILY that people are victimized. Not just in the states, you can look through this very thread for accounts of other people from other countries with terrible stories.
The very system of the state giving some non-elected individuals sole legal authority to excise violence against their peers, even ostensibly to prevent crimes we all agree are crimes, creates a power dynamic that leads to all sorts of problems we see today.
There might be bad daily incidents here too. Sure. Even if it were 10, what about the tens of thousands of incidents where cops just were helpful and/or protective? Same like with plane-accidents. Millions don’t happen but the one that does makes the media.
I really don’t see the problems you do. Cops here are highly selected (a weekend full of assessments of all kind, physical, intellectual and psychological evaluation). From like 300 participants, 0-3 get chosen. Then follows 3 years of training and regular checks. Not every country is like the USA which seems to recruit nutjobs and then give them a 2 week crash course.
But, for the sake of the argument: what is the alternative? No cops at all? What do you do if you’re in need of help? Elect cops? That already seems to work great with politicians /s
I’m not an expert on any of this. Just a caveat, I’m sure anything I propose will have it’s share of flaws.
State law enforcement (men armed with guns apprehending private citizens) should be the LAST step. For in-the-moment intervention, cops are already useless - unless they happen to be on site already, whatever violence happen, will happen before they get there. There’s no good answer to stopping a determined violent individual, short of empowering people to defend themselves and others around them.
I think there’s always going to be some level of violent crime. Some people simply don’t function the same way. For these people, we clearly need some kind of active response force. It’s use should be limited, based on hard fact and actual threat to civilian life. We also clearly need some kind of (humane) separation for people who cannot or will not rehabilitate, people who cannot be reintegrated into our society. These are two of the only acceptable uses of state violence, in my opinion.
I don’t know the exact way it would look, but I’d like to see a move towards communities looking after themselves and those around them, in all aspects, and this includes safety and security.
Unfortunately, for property crimes, the only way to actually enforce property ownership is through violence, either direct threat of violence (break my shit and I’ll end you), or state violence (break my shit and the state will send armed men to apprehend you unless you reimburse me). We have to determine what level of property security versus violence we seem acceptable. I tend to fall a bit more extreme towards violence not being okay to protect property - I don’t think there’s a single piece of property worth killing or maiming an individual over. Thus, if the only way to protect property is this level of violence, I believe it is wrong to intervene. I don’t believe it is right for the individual to intervene, and I don’t believe it is right for the state to intervene. The sad truth is that most of what the police force does now is enforce these types of crimes.
A community looking after themselves? Nice in theory but
- won’t work for bigger cities where nobody gives a rats ass for others
- won’t work in countries without free guns. How else should a community defend themselves?
- organized crime will always beat local yokels with guns. Now they just can do it freely.
- who organizes it? Who votes whom? And in the end someone is doing nothing but organizing everything and cashing in. Up the point where he needs protection for his wealth and starts adapting rules. Back to square 1.
I see you’re not sure of an alternative, i wouldn’t have one to offer either. Where’s light there’s shadow. And the worst problem is always: people. Homo homini lupus est. Always has been, allways will be. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t optimize police where necessary. But personally I’m quite glad they’re 3 numbers dialed away to quickly help first, ask later. You can even call them drunk so they drive you back home for free or at least call u a cab😁
Sure they would protect my properties too. So unless you are totally against property (then you’d totally be right and we wouldn’t argue), how else should i protect it? I don’t work but I’m still sometimes not at home and glad the cops would be here in 5mins in case of an alarm.
Nuh uh, dehumanizing them works better!
Wow, such argument, many insight. Hope you’ll never need a cop (and you’re not murican) 😉
Hello, you seem to be referencing an often misquoted statistic. TL:DR; The 40% number is wrong and plain old bad science. In attempt to recreate the numbers, by the same researchers, they received a rate of 24%, but only while considering acts like shouting as violence. Further researchers found rates of 7%, 7.8%, 10%, and 13% with stricter definitions and better research methodology.
The 40% claim is intentionally misleading and unequivocally inaccurate. Numerous studies over the years report domestic violence rates in police families as low as 7%, with the highest at 40% defining violence to include shouting or a loss of temper. The referenced study where the 40% claim originates is Neidig, P.H…, Russell, H.E. & Seng, A.F. (1992). Interspousal aggression in law enforcement families: A preliminary investigation. It states:
Survey results revealed that approximately 40% of the participating officers reported marital conflicts involving physical aggression in the previous year.
There are a number of flaws with the aforementioned study:
The study includes as ‘violent incidents’ a one time push, shove, shout, loss of temper, or an incidents where a spouse acted out in anger. These do not meet the legal standard for domestic violence. This same study reports that the victims reported a 10% rate of physical domestic violence from their partner. The statement doesn’t indicate who the aggressor is; the officer or the spouse. The study is a survey and not an empirical scientific study. The “domestic violence” acts are not confirmed as actually being violent. The study occurred nearly 30 years ago. This study shows minority and female officers were more likely to commit the DV, and white males were least likely. Additional reference from a Congressional hearing on the study: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=umn.31951003089863c
An additional study conducted by the same researcher, which reported rates of 24%, suffer from additional flaws:
The study is a survey and not an empirical scientific study. The study was not a random sample, and was isolated to high ranking officers at a police conference. This study also occurred nearly 30 years ago.
More current research, including a larger empirical study with thousands of responses from 2009 notes, ‘Over 87 percent of officers reported never having engaged in physical domestic violence in their lifetime.’ Blumenstein, Lindsey, Domestic violence within law enforcement families: The link between traditional police subculture and domestic violence among police (2009). Graduate Theses and Dissertations. http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/etd/1862
Yet another study “indicated that 10 percent of respondents (148 candidates) admitted to having ever slapped, punched, or otherwise injured a spouse or romantic partner, with 7.2 percent (110 candidates) stating that this had happened once, and 2.1 percent (33 candidates) indicating that this had happened two or three times. Repeated abuse (four or more occurrences) was reported by only five respondents (0.3 percent).” A.H. Ryan JR, Department of Defense, Polygraph Institute “The Prevalence of Domestic Violence in Police Families.” http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/virtual_disk_library/index.cgi/4951188/FID707/Root/New/030PG297.PDF
Another: In a 1999 study, 7% of Baltimore City police officers admitted to ‘getting physical’ (pushing, shoving, grabbing and/or hitting) with a partner. A 2000 study of seven law enforcement agencies in the Southeast and Midwest United States found 10% of officers reporting that they had slapped, punched, or otherwise injured their partners. L. Goodmark, 2016, BRIGHAM YOUNG UNIVERSITY LAW REVIEW “Hands up at Home: Militarized Masculinity and Police Officers Who Commit Intimate Partner Abuse “. https://digitalcommons.law.umaryland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2519&context=fac_pubs
I’m not exactly sure by what standard you’re distinguishing between “survey” and “empirical study,” considering all of your cited studies also rely on surveys.
Not prepared to read through over 100 pages of unrelated stuff, perhaps you could add a page number? It sounds like this source is included only for a critique of the original study though, and I’ll accept that that study isn’t perfect.
Ninety officers returned the surveys for a response rate of 36%.
This type of sampling comes with both weaknesses and strengths. One important weakness of using this convenience sample is that the results generated on the nature of the police sub-culture and the frequency of interpersonal violence on the part of police will not necessarily be generalizable. Although these results may not be generalizable, this sample is satisfactory for testing relationships among the variables—traditional police sub-culture, police domestic violence. This sample comes entirely from Central Florida, which further limits generalizability.
This paper is focused on a link between a domestic violence and a “traditional police sub-culture,” it is not intended to be taken as a reliable, generalizable source of overall domestic violence.
http://webapp1.dlib.indiana.edu/virtual_disk_library/index.cgi/4951188/FID707/Root/New/030PG297.PDF
Did not investigate this one because I don’t have the means to read floppy disk .iso images readily available.
https://digitalcommons.law.umaryland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2519&context=fac_pubs
This one does reference the studies you mentioned, along with other studies showing much higher numbers. It then goes on to say:
The data on intimate partner abuse by police officers are both dated and potentially flawed, but in ways that make it more likely that abuse is being under—rather than over—reported.59 Most of the studies rely on self-reporting by police officers to establish prevalence of abuse. Self-reporting is a notoriously unreliable measure; as one study noted, “The issue of the reliability of self-reports data is problematic when considering any socially undesirable behavior.”60 Intimate partner abuse is frequently underreported,61 both by those who experience it and those who commit it. Underreporting is likely to be particularly prevalent among law enforcement officers “who fear, even when anonymity is assured, that admitting their own or their colleagues’ abusive behavior may jeopardize careers and livelihoods and break up families."
I’m gonna be that person right now, but i really don’t care if it’s a misleading or misquoted stat. If they get to throw around 13/50 or that trans suicide number without any care to the actual reasons I’m gonna throw around 40% self report to domestic abuse. Just like you can’t stop them, you can’t stop me. It’d be different if I had a platform of some kind, but I don’t. If someone finds out misrepresented something oh well, they’ll fine the correct info eventually and by that point they may have been swayed to our side by doing further digging. Go ahead and down vote internet numbers mean nothing to me.
BTW did you know that 40% of cops abuse their spouse?
i really don’t care if it’s a misleading or misquoted stat.
I’m frankly not surprised. Decent, honest people do, though, hence my effort to reveal that it is, in fact, a bogus stat, so that said people will know to disregard both it, and those like you, who continue to spread it in the name of their narrative despite knowing it’s bogus.
People who care more about maintaining and propagating their biases/prejudices than about being honest and truthful, are abhorrent scum, and don’t belong in civilized society.
